More than 60% of ultra-orthodox Israeli men do not work

[primroselane]

The issue is not just the hundreds of millions of dollars doled out annually for seminaries and child allowances. Worry — and anger — is deepening about whether Israel can survive economically if it continues to encourage a culture of not working.

The ultra-Orthodox, known in Hebrew as haredim, or those in awe of God, make up 10 percent of Israel’s population of 7.5 million, but are increasing rapidly. In addition to the men, more than 50 percent of haredi women do not work, compared with 21 percent among mainstream Jewish women. About 75 percent of Arab women do not work.

But while the Arab fertility rate has been dropping, the haredim still marry young and favor large families with eight children or more. 78 percent of primary school children in Israel by 2040 will be either ultra-Orthodox or Arab.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/29/wo...e&ref=homepage

[willow_girl]

“Torah is the most important thing in the world,” Rabbi Amsellem said in an interview. But now more than 60 percent of ultra-Orthodox men in Israel do not work, compared with 15 percent in the general population, and he argued that full-time, state-financed study should be reserved for great scholars destined to become rabbis or religious judges.

“Those who are not that way inclined,” he said, “should go out and earn a living.”

In reaction, he was ousted from his own ultra-Orthodox Shas Party, whose leaders vilified him with such venom that he was assigned a bodyguard. The party newspaper printed a special supplement describing Rabbi Amsellem as “Amalek,” the biblical embodiment of all evil.

Ouch!!!

[Danaus29]

I would like to ask them where it is written that they should not work.

[NoClue]

Originally Posted by Danaus29

I would like to ask them where it is written that they should not work.

They would probably respond by asking you why it has to be written.

[glazed]

Originally Posted by Danaus29

I would like to ask them where it is written that they should not work.

Pardon the digression, as it veers slightly off-course from this thread.

It is written that one should not work on the seventh day ... applies to all ... the other six days are fair game.

I suppose there really are extremes/radicals in all religions.

[fordy]

Originally Posted by primroselane

The issue is not just the hundreds of millions of dollars doled out annually for seminaries and child allowances. Worry — and anger — is deepening about whether Israel can survive economically if it continues to encourage a culture of not working.

The ultra-Orthodox, known in Hebrew as haredim, or those in awe of God, make up 10 percent of Israel’s population of 7.5 million, but are increasing rapidly. In addition to the men, more than 50 percent of haredi women do not work, compared with 21 percent among mainstream Jewish women. About 75 percent of Arab women do not work.

But while the Arab fertility rate has been dropping, the haredim still marry young and favor large families with eight children or more. 78 percent of primary school children in Israel by 2040 will be either ultra-Orthodox or Arab.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/29/wo...e&ref=homepage

..................Are these guys the ones wearing those silly looking beards and Pigtails , wearing their Archie Bunker Black Hats ? I continually see pics of them at the wailing wall bobbing their noggins like they need too pee , really bad ! lol , fordy

[Danaus29]

God commanded that by the sweat of his brow should man eat. If they don't work they should starve, according to Genesis. So it would have to be written that those who study the Torah would be supported by those who obey God. And if it is so important why shouldn't everyone study and not work?

It's just pitiful that those who claim to be ultra-religious can fall so far away from those teachings they claim to uphold.

Mama Crow, yes slightly off course. But to spend that much time studying what God had written and to overlook such a huge issue is a serious problem.

[glazed]

Originally Posted by Danaus29

Mama Crow, yes slightly off course. But to spend that much time studying what God had written and to overlook such a huge issue is a serious problem.

Yes, I agree ... which is why I pointed out the extremism.

[English Oliver]

Originally Posted by primroselane

The ultra-Orthodox, known in Hebrew as haredim, or those in awe of God, make up 10 percent of Israel’s population of 7.5 million,
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/29/wo...e&ref=homepage

10%, WOW, that almost matches the unemployment rate here not including the habitually unemployed here.

"O"

[JJ Grandits]

Sounds like the religious version of a welfare scam. I believe it is written that those who do not work do not eat.

[NoClue]

Originally Posted by Danaus29

God commanded that by the sweat of his brow should man eat. If they don't work they should starve, according to Genesis. So it would have to be written that those who study the Torah would be supported by those who obey God. And if it is so important why shouldn't everyone study and not work?

It's just pitiful that those who claim to be ultra-religious can fall so far away from those teachings they claim to uphold.

Mama Crow, yes slightly off course. But to spend that much time studying what God had written and to overlook such a huge issue is a serious problem.

I'm not Jewish, but Christian, and I don't pretend to be an authority on Jewish spirituality. At the same time, I'm not completely ignorant of it, nor am I ignorant of the scriptural base shared between Judaism and Christianity.

First and foremost, the doctrine of sola scriptura is particular to Protestant Christianity and neither Jews or non-Protestant Christians (or even Muslims for that matter) claim to adhere to it. My understanding of Jewish thought is that the scriptures are the foundation of the law, but not the whole of the law.

The scriptures you refer to are presumably Genesis 3:17-19 in which God metes out his punishment to Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit. They do indeed proclaim that man shall have to work for his food, but they do not in any way declare 'Work or Starve'. Furthermore, through out the Jewish scripture, many men are called to set aside the mundane task of feeding themselves and devote themselves to spiritual matters. Many Haredim believe they are called directly to do the same. They do not however, believe that the State, or any one in particular is obligated to feed them - they simply believe that because they are devoting themselves to God, He will see that their basic needs are met.

[primroselane]

Originally Posted by fordy

..................Are these guys the ones wearing those silly looking beards and Pigtails , wearing their Archie Bunker Black Hats ? I continually see pics of them at the wailing wall bobbing their noggins like they need too pee , really bad ! lol , fordy

I am 64 years old. After observing the dress, styles and make up worn in this country, I would be extremely hesitant to refer to any other culture as silly looking.

Have you noticed that young men here pay $30.00 to get their hair styled so that it looks like mine when I get up? Or have you noticed the series of slides periodically arriving via e-mail entitled, "People of Wal-mart"? In the never to be forgoting words of Pogo, "They is us."

[fordy]

Originally Posted by primroselane

I am 64 years old. After observing the dress, styles and make up worn in this country, I would be extremely hesitant to refer to any other culture as silly looking.

Have you noticed that young men here pay $30.00 to get their hair styled so that it looks like mine when I get up? Or have you noticed the series of slides periodically arriving via e-mail entitled, "People of Wal-mart"? In the never to be forgoting words of Pogo, "They is us."

..............Just turned 64 myself , and it doesn't bother me at all too make a "Saturday Night live" remark about their looks ! Same deal with making Fun of that ordinary ------- , Mohammad . No one is above the satirical law of having their beliefs , looks , or personality skewered by anyone else in this country as long as our Constitution remains the prima facia document from which we derive our freedoms . , fordy

[Wags]

Originally Posted by fordy

..................Are these guys the ones wearing those silly looking beards and Pigtails , wearing their Archie Bunker Black Hats ? I continually see pics of them at the wailing wall bobbing their noggins like they need too pee , really bad ! lol , fordy

Nothing at all funny about your comments Fordy. My five year old has better manners and understanding of civil discourse than you just displayed.

[Danaus29]

From reading the article my understanding of the situation is that these ultra-orthodox men expect the country of Israel to support them and their wives and children.

I didn't notice this line before:
"Already, there are an increasing number of programs to prod the ultra-Orthodox to join the work force and to serve out the military duties required of all other Jewish Israelis"
to me it sounds like they are claiming to be ultra-orthodox just to avoid military service.

No God didn't exactly say work or starve. Even the part about the laborer being worthy of his hire is found in the new testament. So is the part about providing for ones own house. I could go into the whole part about the sin offerings and other required offerings that are supposed to be made and the part where David refused to offer to the Lord that which cost him nothing. Wouldn't make any difference what the scriptures say. Even if they said "thou shalt not suck from the govt teat for sustenance for yourself, your wives and your children" they would probably still want the govt to support them.

It's just another form of govt welfare and the support of lazy people. Apparently welfare is easy to get in Israel and no limits were set on those who received it. It has become a drain on the economy and promotes an unsustainable way of life.

[NoClue]

Personally, I see this as just part of the ongoing internal debate in Israel on whether it should be a secular or particularly Jewish state. As such, whatever my opinion, rit's really none of my business.

The practice isn't confined to Israel, of course. I'll try to make sure my daughter doesn't marry one of these guys.

[Danaus29]

NoClue, just make sure you serve pork or cheeseburgers every time she brings a boyfriend home.

[fordy]

Originally Posted by NoClue

Personally, I see this as just part of the ongoing internal debate in Israel on whether it should be a secular or particularly Jewish state. As such, whatever my opinion, rit's really none of my business.

The practice isn't confined to Israel, of course. I'll try to make sure my daughter doesn't marry one of these guys.

...................The Israeli Army would be in a real fix if they depended upon these guys too fight the Arabs ! , fordy

[willow_girl]

God commanded that by the sweat of his brow should man eat.

Does this also apply to priests and preachers?

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Does this also apply to priests and preachers?

I think that to qualify as a Priest, one must serve humanity. I can see the social good in supporting one who serves mankind, but to provide for one who spends all his time in private introspection is just wrong.