The disappearing middle class

willow_girl · #1 07/26/10, 06:44 AM

http://tinyurl.com/2clrhs7

Looks like Americans in the future will be either rich or poor. Mostly poor.

pancho · #2 07/26/10, 07:04 AM

The plan is coming together. Faster than predicted.
Shouldn't take long as everyone is committed and willing.

willow_girl · #3 07/26/10, 07:12 AM

Yes. Wealth is being consolidated in the coffers of the extremely rich at an alarming rate, largely aided and abetted by government practices.

I find it curious that most of the working-class enthusiastically champions these policies. What, do they think they'll end up wealthy as a result?

Cornhusker · #4 07/26/10, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Yes. Wealth is being consolidated in the coffers of the extremely rich at an alarming rate, largely aided and abetted by government practices.

I find it curious that most of the working-class enthusiastically champions these policies. What, do they think they'll end up wealthy as a result?

That's what we are hoping for.

Actually, the government is doing it's best to eliminate the middle class.
Check out our record unemployment.
Nobody is easier to control than desperate people.
Time to take control of our government and get rid of these globalization control freaks.

watcher · #5 07/26/10, 08:10 AM

You are missing the reason for the problem. The government rewards the poor and punishes the middle class and the 'rich'. This means the poor have no incentive to stop being poor and the 'rich' don't have as much but it KILLS the middle class.

Want to fix the problem? Stop rewarding people for being poor. Make being poor in the America HARD!!! If you are poor you can get government help with food but you will ONLY be allowed to buy specific foods. If you get government assistance you work and it will be hard and/or nasty work and you will do it in public where everyone can see you. You will be required to spend a minim number of hours a week pulling weeds, by hand, out of the flowers at city hall; mowing the city park with a push mower, and the like.

Then you need to make sure everyone pays only their fair amount of taxes. You get rid of almost all taxes on businesses, get rid of all the federal income tax deductions and you change the income tax to a flat rate. Everyone pays the same rate on each dollar they earn. If the rate is 15% and you earn $100 you pay $15, if you earn $1,000,000 you pay $150,000.

Just doing that would result in an economic boom which would cause the number of people in the middle class to skyrocket.

Or you could just do it the government way, change the earnings necessary to be considered middle class.

7thswan · #6 07/26/10, 08:53 AM

Yup, the elites and the workers. Somehow folks can't see what is being done to the country. We will be slaves for the Government.

dezingg · #7 07/26/10, 09:24 AM

from 7thswan:
"We will be slaves for the Government."

Yeah but don't forget who controls the government. Hint: it isn't the middle class.

This isn't fun to read when I'm tired and discouraged. (And I have a job, it would be worse if I didn't.)

pancho · #8 07/26/10, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

You are missing the reason for the problem. The government rewards the poor and punishes the middle class and the 'rich'. This means the poor have no incentive to stop being poor and the 'rich' don't have as much but it KILLS the middle class.

Want to fix the problem? Stop rewarding people for being poor. Make being poor in the America HARD!!! If you are poor you can get government help with food but you will ONLY be allowed to buy specific foods. If you get government assistance you work and it will be hard and/or nasty work and you will do it in public where everyone can see you. You will be required to spend a minim number of hours a week pulling weeds, by hand, out of the flowers at city hall; mowing the city park with a push mower, and the like.

Then you need to make sure everyone pays only their fair amount of taxes. You get rid of almost all taxes on businesses, get rid of all the federal income tax deductions and you change the income tax to a flat rate. Everyone pays the same rate on each dollar they earn. If the rate is 15% and you earn $100 you pay $15, if you earn $1,000,000 you pay $150,000.

Just doing that would result in an economic boom which would cause the number of people in the middle class to skyrocket.

Or you could just do it the government way, change the earnings necessary to be considered middle class.

That all sounds real good. Any suggestions on how this could be done?

willow_girl · #9 07/26/10, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Want to fix the problem? Stop rewarding people for being poor.

Do you really think there are high-paying jobs (or even jobs that pay a living wage) available to everyone who wants one?

How about we quit castigating people who are poor, since the jobs that could have lifted them out of poverty (or kept them from plunging into it) have been moved overseas by the wealthy?

Of course, in the beginning, the middle class was all in favor of offshoring (as long as it wasn't THEIR job!) because they saw great gains in their 401ks and investment portfolios as corporate profits boomed. (When you go from paying employees $20 an hour to a couple bucks a day, of COURSE profits will skyrocket!)

Now the middle class is like Wile E. Coyote when he realizes he's run off the cliff. Oops!

Where are we (and Wile E.) headed? Why, down, of course. As the article I cited above notes:

Quote:

The reality is that no matter how smart, how strong, how educated or how hard working American workers are, they just cannot compete with people who are desperate to put in 10 to 12 hour days at less than a dollar an hour on the other side of the world. After all, what corporation in their right mind is going to pay an American worker 10 times more (plus benefits) to do the same job? The world is fundamentally changing. Wealth and power are rapidly becoming concentrated at the top and the big global corporations are making massive amounts of money. Meanwhile, the American middle class is being systematically wiped out of existence as U.S. workers are slowly being merged into the new "global" labor pool.

This is reality. Sadly, the "solution" voiced by many seems to be to castigate the shiftless poor, rather than to recognize the situation for what it is. (Perhaps because we all played a part in creating this mess. I sure liked those double-digit returns; didn't you?)

Neither Democrats or Republicans are solely to blame here, nor does either party have a solution, as far as I can see. Reducing government spending and/or cutting taxes sounds nice, and should be done, but it's not going to solve the problem. It won't bring the jobs back.

What we are seeing, and will continue to see, is the gradual deterioration in the standard of living, and the reversal of environmental and safety regulations, to the point where the U.S. worker becomes competitive with the Third World laborer.

In this brave new world, if you don't have the wherewithal to be one of the rich, you'd better get used to being poor, and liking it. As homesteaders, we have an advantage in the latter department, as our version of the American dream is a bit different than most.

pancho · #10 07/26/10, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Do you really think there are high-paying jobs (or even jobs that pay a living wage) available to everyone who wants one?

How about we quit castigating people who are poor, since the jobs that could have lifted them out of poverty (or kept them from plunging into it) have been moved overseas by the wealthy?

Of course, in the beginning, the middle class was all in favor of offshoring (as long as it wasn't THEIR job!) because they saw great gains in their 401ks and investment portfolios as corporate profits boomed. (When you go from paying employees $20 an hour to a couple bucks a day, of COURSE profits will skyrocket!)

Now the middle class is like Wile E. Coyote when he realizes he's run off the cliff. Oops!

Where are we (and Wile E.) headed? Why, down, of course. As the article I cited above notes:

This is reality. Sadly, the "solution" voiced by many seems to be to castigate the shiftless poor, rather than to recognize the situation for what it is. (Perhaps because we all played a part in creating this mess. I sure liked those double-digit returns; didn't you?)

Neither Democrats or Republicans are solely to blame here, nor does either party have a solution, as far as I can see. Reducing government spending and/or cutting taxes sounds nice, and should be done, but it's not going to solve the problem. It won't bring the jobs back.

What we are seeing, and will continue to see, is the gradual deterioration in the standard of living, and the reversal of environmental and safety regulations, to the point where the U.S. worker becomes competitive with the Third World laborer.

In this brave new world, if you don't have the wherewithal to be one of the rich, you'd better get used to being poor, and liking it. As homesteaders, we have an advantage in the latter department, as our version of the American dream is a bit different than most.

Guess I agree with you. With transportation being like it is today why wouldn't companies go to where labor is cheaper.
The world is shrinking. We will have to learn to compete. We can't expect others to not want the same things we do. They are starting from nearly nothing so will be satisfied with less. We will have to learn to meet them half way.

SquashNut · #11 07/26/10, 10:43 AM

If we don't castigate the shiftless poor they will have no incentive to work for them selves. We have made it to comfortable for them. We need to move from a hand out to a hand up. If it indeed is castigatugating them. To many times people confuse figuring out the root cause of problems with being deragatory.
How can people be helped if we don't take the time to figure out what will help them.

where I want to · #12 07/26/10, 11:05 AM

How can any American compete with Indians and Chinese? First of all, desperate poverty caused those peoples to work very hard for very little so labor is cheap and pretty much unregulated.
All it takes here is for one over paid reporter to do a sob piece on abusive work practices, and there would be some half-baked law passed somewhere.
Governments can not set extra burdens on the backs of employers and employees, then put them into a race with those not burdened. But that is exactly what we do.
The American (and not so American) rich want to be able to farm the world for the least expensive workers and then sell unimpeded to the US market. They have the ear of Congress who are members of their club.
But the golden goose is struggling to live now- a few more twists of her neck and no more golden eggs from the US. People without work are living off of their capital now. Fine if you have lots of capital but for those already living close to the edge, not so fine.
I would rather have a much more balanced governance where every burden added for social reasons is recognised as that and a corresponding burden is added to imports even those from US holders.

willow_girl · #13 07/26/10, 11:06 AM

Quote:

How can people be helped if we don't take the time to figure out what will help them.

What will help them are, of course, jobs. Ideally, jobs that will allow them to earn more than they can receive on public assistance. I really can't blame someone for not going to work when doing so will result in less income and/or security than they will have on public assistance. Most people make decisions that are in their best interest, and I can't fault them for that. If we, the majority, make it wisest for them to remain on assistance, can we blame them for exercising that option?

Of course, we could reduce the amount of public assistance to the point where nearly any job would be preferable. (Eventually it will become necessary to do so anyway, as the government's revenues and borrowing power shrinks.) This will move some people off the rolls, but it also will make the poor even poorer, and will probably increase the crime rate. Then there is the risk of insurrection. People start getting restless when they can't feed their children! Remember the French Revolution?

I find it curious that the middle class points the finger of blame at the poor, not the wealthy. Of course there are a great many poor who are that way because of their own lousy choices, but I believe there are even more who go to work every day for low wages, with little opportunity for advancement. The article I cited above indicates more than 40 percent of Americans now work in the service industry. These traditionally have been low-paying jobs. America has become a nation where we earn our living selling stuff to each other, usually at rock-bottom prices.

So, what's the solution? I don't think there is a global solution (meaning, one that will solve the problem for Americans at large). I do think there are a few things non-wealthy individuals can do to improve their lot in life.

One is to learn a skilled trade that can't be offshored.

Another is to go to work for the government. As the article I cited earlier indicates, "In the United States, the average federal worker now earns 60% MORE than the average worker in the private sector." Hey, might as well ride the gravy train while you can!

The above solutions assume one wants to achieve the traditional American dream -- the suburban home, two chickens in every pot, two cars in every garage. A third solution involves chucking that dream, which will become increasingly unattainable anyhow, and acquiring the skills and ability to live a subsistence lifestyle, making or growing what one needs to survive. This is where, as I said earlier, homesteaders have a leg up.

pancho · #14 07/26/10, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by where I want to

How can any American compete with Indians and Chinese? First of all, desperate poverty caused those peoples to work very hard for very little so labor is cheap and pretty much unregulated.
All it takes here is for one over paid reporter to do a sob piece on abusive work practices, and there would be some half-baked law passed somewhere.
Governments can not set extra burdens on the backs of employers and employees, then put them into a race with those not burdened. But that is exactly what we do.
The American (and not so American) rich want to be able to farm the world for the least expensive workers and then sell unimpeded to the US market. They have the ear of Congress who are members of their club.
But the golden goose is struggling to live now- a few more twists of her neck and no more golden eggs from the US. People without work are living off of their capital now. Fine if you have lots of capital but for those already living close to the edge, not so fine.
I would rather have a much more balanced governance where every burden added for social reasons is recognised as that and a corresponding burden is added to imports even those from US holders.

At this time Americans can't compete with Indians and Chinese. At some time in the future we will have to. We won't have a choice.
The U. S. was born out of extreme poverty. We worked very hard to make it what it is today. Lately we seem to have forgotten that. Maybe because the older people who had to suffer are no longer here. Maybe it is because they never taught their children the meaning of hard work and saving. Lot of reasons.
That is all history now. We will have to decide, as a country, if we are going to give up and let other countries take the place of the U.S. It is possible that is the future of the U.S.
We will have to decide if we would rather fight with each other and all go down or gather together and make the U.S. a great leader again.
Just my opinion but I think we still have a ways to go and a lot more suffering before we will decide to do anything about it. Just hope we don't wait too long.

watcher · #15 07/26/10, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dezingg

from 7thswan:
"We will be slaves for the Government."

Yeah but don't forget who controls the government. Hint: it isn't the middle class.

This isn't fun to read when I'm tired and discouraged. (And I have a job, it would be worse if I didn't.)

You right, its the slugs who have their votes being bought by "free" government stuff.

PyroDon · #16 07/26/10, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

You are missing the reason for the problem. The government rewards the poor and punishes the middle class and the 'rich'. This means the poor have no incentive to stop being poor and the 'rich' don't have as much but it KILLS the middle class.

Actually if the government would stop rewarding the rich the poor might actually be able to get jobs and off the government dole .
we have already seen that the only thing tax breaks to the rich do is get american jobs shipped over seas so they can pocket more money them selves .
as a result our nation no longer has the ability to manufacture the needed materials to supply our own military let alone have a strong economy .
so lets review again what those taxe cuts have done
1 tanked the economy
2 sent American jobs over seas
3 reduced our ability to defend our nation
4 put countless Americans out of work and on the government dole

be my guest to prove just one of those wrong , good luck because you cant .
after those great tax cuts over a million jobs disappeared while businesses moved manufacturing over seas

watcher · #17 07/26/10, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pancho

That all sounds real good. Any suggestions on how this could be done?

Within the current system? Only the last one could ever get done.

The pols have trained the slugs of the nation if they vote for the 'correct' party that party will toss them a treat. Do you think the slugs will ever vote to have their treats taken away from them?

Well its reaching, if not already reached, the point where there are more slugs than the rest of us. Once that point is reached there is no hope to save the government from collapse because.

mnn2501 · #18 07/26/10, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by watcher

Make being poor in the America HARD!!! If you are poor you can get government help with food but you will ONLY be allowed to buy specific foods. If you get government assistance you work and it will be hard and/or nasty work and you will do it in public where everyone can see you. You will be required to spend a minim number of hours a week pulling weeds, by hand, out of the flowers at city hall; mowing the city park with a push mower, and the like.
.

Congratulations, you've just brought back slavery, based not on color this time but on economics instead

willow_girl · #19 07/26/10, 01:21 PM

Nowadays we prefer to keep our slaves overseas ... out of sight and out of mind.

watcher · #20 07/26/10, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Do you really think there are high-paying jobs (or even jobs that pay a living wage) available to everyone who wants one?

You know what I went into three different stores this weekend which had help wanted signs on their doors. One of which was looking for people for management level jobs.

Also we are talking about history not just today. Not that long ago the local fast food places were offering starting jobs at $2/hr over minimum wage and still couldn't get workers. Hum . . .I wonder why. Could it be that a person can sit at home and make a better living than working at McDees due to the government making it easier to be poor than working? Sure you might have to work at McDees and Denny's and maybe even a third job or maybe you might have to get rid of your cable TV and, HEAVEN FORBID, ride a bike to work.

Years ago I worked management at a fast food place. I had people tell me to my face the only reason they were filling out an app was to keep the government happy because they could sit at home and make more money than they could working. At the same time I had a guy who worked the graveyard shift who could not ever work over time because he had to leave on time so he could walk to his other job. He did this 6 days a week and would do it 7 if I could let him do it w/o him getting over 40 hours in that week.

I'm sick of slugs. I no longer help slugs. If a person is having problems I step up and help but if they refuse to help themselves I tell them to find someone else to sponge off of. Used to be about half of the people looking for help were slugs who would need you to pay the electric bill or water bill every month or buy them some food or gas every week and would never do anything to make their life better. In the last 6 or 7 years that percentage has gone up to at least 80%. I'll give you one fish no questions asked but if you aren't willing to learn to fish don't ask me for another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

How about we quit castigating people who are poor, since the jobs that could have lifted them out of poverty (or kept them from plunging into it) have been moved overseas by the wealthy?

Tell you what. Say you were working for a company making say $10/hr and you heard of another company with $11/hr jobs would you change companies? If not you are strange because most people will leave for a lot less than $1/hr. Now if workers are not expected to be loyal why should companies be held to that standard?

BTW, do you know why companies are leaving the US? Its simple, it cost too much to make stuff here. Why? Taxes, government mandates, unions and our high standard of living.

Also most people are poor due to their actions. How many poor people do you know who dropped out of high school? How many poor people do you know who drink to excess or do drugs? How many got pregnant early and/or without being in a stable family relationship?

Yeah there are exceptions but they are few and far between.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

Neither Democrats or Republicans are solely to blame here, nor does either

You'll note I never mention either party. I lumped them all into the same pile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

party have a solution, as far as I can see. Reducing government spending and/or cutting taxes sounds nice, and should be done, but it's not going to solve the problem. It won't bring the jobs back.

I think you are wrong. Do you agree high taxes on cigarettes reduces the number of cigarettes sold? Do you not think high taxes on businesses reduces the number of businesses? Ever wonder why new factories are built in areas where they are given tax breaks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow_girl

What we are seeing, and will continue to see, is the gradual deterioration in the standard of living, and the reversal of environmental and safety regulations, to the point where the U.S. worker becomes competitive with the Third World laborer.

In this brave new world, if you don't have the wherewithal to be one of the rich, you'd better get used to being poor, and liking it. As homesteaders, we have an advantage in the latter department, as our version of the American dream is a bit different than most.

Life sucks and there are somethings you can't change. And we are heading for a 3 world country if we don't change something in the next 6-8 years.

One thing you can't change is some jobs are so simple there is no skill required and these jobs are the ones which will move as soon as the cost of labor in one area gets too high. If you try to keep the pay for these jobs high you drive the cost of the end product so high the business can't sell them or push the cost of living so high it doesn't matter.

Years ago I had a guy tell me he was going to move from central MO to Huston TX where a family member had a job set up which paid, IIRC, almost twice as much as he was making in MO. He was back in about 6 months asking if he could have his old job back. He explained sure the pay was twice as much but the cost of living was so high he could live better in MO with half the money.

What difference does it make if a person is making $2/hr or $25/hr if the cost of a loaf of bread is equal to 15 minutes of work?