Starting diesels in freezing temps.
 

So I'd like to get away from electric block heaters. Can I rig a kerosene shop heater to just blast a diesel engine under a tarp or something, to warm it enough to fire up?

http://www.princessauto.com/pal/prod...erosene-Heater

Like in the link above.

I would say so just don't sit it on fire . Old timers use to build a fire under the belly pan on skidders and dozers to heat them up

I've done that to start tractors.

farmers in very cold areas sometimes rig a propane waterheater, and disconnect hoses to keep coolant warm during the night. probably needs an electric circulation pump, unless thermoshiponing circulation could be designed,, i've already told you more than i know...

Does you tractor have glow plugs? If not there is a place to inject starter fluid in it. In really cold places you will need a heat source to warm the motor oil so that you can get it to turn over fast enough to start. Electric block heaters were design to make it easier to start. If you want to get away from them don't expect it to start the same way.

I just want to replace the heat source; not that i am anti ether starting fluid on these tractors. Ether was death to my Belarus so I never used it there. I am thinking if I direct 75,000 btus at an engine for an hour it will heat up enough to fire. I may be in Canada but I'm not insanely north!

I guess I should keep quiet since I'm from the Southern US where it does not usually get cold, but it does get cold enough to cause trouble with starting diesel tractors. The main reason that diesels don't want to start in cold weather is that the starter is not turning the engine over fast enough. On one ocasion I drained the old cold oil and replaced with fresh oil that had been warmed at a stove. It started like summertime but I discovered the tractor had battery issues, which is another reason for poor starting due to failure to spin the engine fast enough. So you should check the condition of the battery, check that the battery cables are in good condition(they can corrode inside the insulation and be too flimsy to carry enough current), and check that the cable ends are clean and making good contact. Also the starter may be weak and not able to spin the motor. If the starter has been working fine in warm weather it's porbably not the starter. Also, a starter repairman will apply power to the starter and see if it spins good, which is usually a good test, but sometimes the starter will spin well under test but not under load.

Factory starting aids include an outside heat source like your block heater which I'm not sure why you find it objectionable, but I've never had any dealings with them. There are also magnetic mount heaters which can be placed on the oil pan to heat up the oil. I would have gotten one for a tractor, but the oil pan was aluminum and besides, mechanics found that the battery was weak and too small. No problems with new battery so far.

Another factory heating aid is the pump operated by outside power which warms and circulates the water in the engine. Again, no experience but word is they work fine.

Another system is to have glow plugs to help ignite the fuel. These do not work in direction injection diesels for good reasons which I don't know enough about to explain. Some Kubotas have glow plugs. Mercedes car diesels have glow plugs. One should not combine glow plugs with the use of ether as it may damage the engine.

Some tractors have manifold heaters which heat the air in the intake manifold and heat the fuel going into the engine on the theory that the engine will fire more easily using warm air and warm fuel. Usually works fine, but the engine still has to spin good.

Some tractors have a hand pump lever on the fuel pump to make sure there is a good supply of fuel at the injector pump.

The only problem with using a torpedo heater to warm the tractor is the danger of fire.
You may be have to do the draining oil and heating it routine. I have tried to heat the crankcase with electric heat guns but with no success. I had more success with heating the intake manifold and fuel lines. Blowing hot air into the air intake seems to help, but I haven't had to deal with the extreme cold that you are likely to have.

Final trick is to hook battery charger to battery and charge it a few minutes. It helps if the charger has a booster setting. Good luck.

COWS

What a number of guys with construction equipment do, and I've seen it used before on semis too, is to use a tiger torch (weed burner to you maybe?), and put that underneath the engine. The torch is put just inside one end of a 6'-8' length of non-insulated chimney/vent pipe. The entire length of pipe then radiates heat up into the engine/driveline/hydraulic system. No idea of how much propane you go through doing this.

My only experience with doing this was firing up a front end loader at a scrapyard I used to work at. We only did it at about -25 and colder or so, and only on those days it -had- to be running. It worked well, we'd be able to fire up in an hour or less. Not sure about the propane it used because we used the bottles which also got used on the propane forklift.

Electricity is very expensive here and besides the heaters do not work especially fast. I can live with the time problem so long as it works. Block heaters can't always keep up with our cold.

I "had" a good cold starting tractor in my Belarus 420 air cooled engine. It had a decompression lever so you decompressed the engine then spun the cold engine until the oil pressure came up then slammed home the compression and it would fire 9 times out of 10 in all temps. The Russians know cold!

If you're going to use something like that, tarp the whole tractor and aim the heater from the front of the tractor back so you get the tranny and hydraulics as well. Otherwise you aren't going to be gaining much if you have to let the tractor run for 15 minutes before you can do anything with it anyway.
My JDs both have block and tranny heaters... the White only has a block heater, it'll start down to about -15 without it anyway but then I can't even change gears for 20 minutes.

You could also look into propane block heaters but I suspect that would be too expensive.

I do not know why the late Oliver/ Cocshutt and White tractors did not convert to pressurized lubrication of the gear case.... when all their competitors had?

The old timers around here tell me they would thin the 90 wt oil with kerosene before winter and then before spring plowing would drain and replace with new oil.

Ross,

Am I correct that you have an outside wood boiler for house/shop heat? If so can't you rig up some tubing to where you could circulate the coolant to where it could be heated and then back to the tractor engine?

In cold weather I always have the battery charger hooked up when the tractor is not in use. If'n it gets real cold (below zero) like they're saying for the next couple of days I put a heat lamp - same as they use(d) in the fast food places - under the tractor pointed up toward the tractor's bottom. I usually toss a tarp over it also.

I have a New Holland TN60-A. It has a button you press to preheat the glow plugs and with a fully charged battery I've had no problem.
I should note that it also has a block heater installed; used it once for about 4 days - added 30 bucks to the electric bill over that time. Don't use it any more.........

The idea of circulation the coolant to a remote heat source is a good one just a bit fussy and best built in warm weather

Similar issue with my 4500 backhoe, in it's first real winter, with me. As a gas engine, it starts right up, but is none too cheerful, that the lubricants and hydro fluid, are like molasses.

I'm thinkig about making pieces of plywood "skirting" around the engine/trans/rear end and then feed heat from a propane salamander 15 mins before starting

I ended up buying a propane salamander as they are cleaner burning for jobsite heating and simpler machines. Now we'll see how this idea works here. Next winter I will have an insulated garage area where I can do this more easily.

Do you have enough capacity with your wood boiler to put in floor heat in your planned garage area?

Ross, I see you bought a heater, but we have done the very thing you mentioned in the first post on a daily basis. We used to be a dairy farm and had to haul manure daily. We'd tarp the Farmall 806 diesel and use a kerosene heater just as you describe, then let the tractor run at a high idle while we ran the manure out to let it warm up. Never had trouble and it always worked. I'm in Pittsburgh, PA, and around 10*F is the coldest we'll ever see.

Why is it that you want to get away from an electric block heater? You said electricity is expensive, but is it really more expensive than what you are going to pay in propane? If you aren't crazy with the block heater possibly try an oil pan heater? You could also put your block heater on a timer set to turn on a couple hours prior to your departure. I just plug my jeep in when I get home and know it will be good to start when I leave.

Tried oil pan heaters. LOL they get hot but do little. I do not leave the block heater on full time but plug it in a couple of hours before needed. Depending on snowfall my bill can jump 50-150 bucks a month. That's running two tractors for feeding and snow clearing. I don't know if this is cheaper or not I guess we'll see. The newer Deere has a glow plug and needs less heat to start but its for sale. Too many electronics!

With proper glow plugs, intake heater, and synthetic oil, you should be able to start the tractor in sub zero (degF) weather without the block heater.

I have a Honda EU2000i generator out at the off-grid property. The normal 30wt oil makes it almost impossible to start when it get below zero. Put some fully synthetic 5w30 or even 0w30 oil, and it start much easier.

My JD310 backhoe doesn't have glow plugs, but was designed for ether. I have to run the block heater with the generator for an hour before I try to start it. Next oil change I'm changing from 15w40 Rotella to the T6 5w40. Should make a difference. I also picked up a intake air grid heater that I plan to install since it doesn't have glow plugs. I want to get to the point that I can push a button, wait a minute, and fire off the backhoe in the dead of winter, even when its -20degF. I also want to build a propane fired coolant heater for the really cold days. Done right and placed under the engine, it will heat the oil pan, as well as the coolant. The even sillier idea is to make a Y in the intake, and pull air from around the burners exhaust. Warm oil, warm engine, and hot air should make for really easy starting.

Just a couple of ideas.

Michael

Back in the day when winter came we would mix a gallon of gas to 15 gallons of Diesel to start a Diesel up. I guess nobody still does that.
We had no ill affects at all or at least that were noticed and in zero degree weather, if they would crank over they would fire up and run. It also helped to keep the fuel from jelling. I guess getting it started is only half the battle as has been mentioned with molasses for gear oil and hydraulic oil.

Just my two cents.

Bluecometk

You know Ross that the kero heater also runs on electricity? Are you asking if keeping it parked in your heated shop will assist in starting when the weather is cold, absolutely. May ask you specifically what about the block heater is so repulsive? They don't use unacceptably high amounts of power. If you plug them in at night when you park, the engine should start up in the morning whenever you want. Was your tractor originally equiped with glow plugs?

No glow plugs and there is a huge difference in powering up 1000 watt heaters Vs a little fan and sparker. I'd like to think a 100 pound tank will do me the winter using it as I first described, and that's $50 plus minimal power. Way cheaper than electricity here if I am correct. Having a heatable garage/shop would help with other jobs too.

i have a new holland and it has a heater in the radiator hose that was factory equipped. i generally plug mine in about one to 2 hours before i want to use it. it also has glow plugs and it starts never fail up to 20 below, thats as cold as ive every used it for blowing snow. of couse you have let it run on higher rpms for 10-15 minutes to get the hydraulics loosened up. i always wanted to get a timer for the lead cord but never did and i never noticed a big difference in the light bill

Ah to have all new tractors, mine include a Ford 6710, Ford 555A backhoe and a Ford 6600. Never found Fords that great to start in the cold at the best of times.

I have to ask, what do you pay per kwh? For my shop/barn service, I pay 50¢ kwh. Also have a 1500 watt block heater in the tractor and my useage may increase $25.00 per month.

ETA: Have you thought about installing gear reduction starters on your tractors? Several neighbors have done so and say they have fewer starting problems with their tractors. JD are the hardest/slowest starting tractors I have ever known.

I have a gear reduction starter on the 6710 and yes it helps a lot. I'll check the rates but we're on smart meters so its variable. Not often to my advantage though. I know its nothing to get a $500-600 and higher/ month bill in winter from 370 ish in summer and tractors are the main variable.

Besides not really doing a great job prepping the tractors to start

Obviously the heat will do more if in an insulated garage. Using the heater outside seems like peeing in the ocean if its below zero, even with a tarp.

I'm trying to picture getting a tarp over a tractor and sealing all edges.

I do hear ya DJ but I'm see brick work done in this weather behind a tarp so with some trial and error I guess I will find out if it will heat a tractor! :)

Find a really large cardboard box to drape over the hood/engine and use the tarp over the cardboard.

Used that combination along with a propane branding iron heater until I could afford the block heater.

Some trucking companies use timers on the plugs with block heaters there might be some sorta temp gauge for hooking one up. If u use it every day would maintaining temp be easier than try to heat it from cold every morning. Maybe when dun with tractor plug it in to a timed outlet that kicked on for five minutes every hr to keep it warm an insulating blankets wraped around it help hold temp. I say that cause everyday u would be setting up tarps n what not to heat it up any way.

We routinely start trucks, cars, heavy equipment in -40 and colder. A weedburner and stovepipe work. Tarps help on the really cold days. Keep the hood down.

A good battery with a full charge also helps, or batteries. It takes more amps to turn the engine over when it gets that cold.

At your electric prices, it would probably pay to get a few solar panels.

Duplicate to the one below.

I had replied to this thread earlier, but don't see it now.

I doubt that you will find anything as cheap as an electric block heater to warm the engine. In the past we had a pickup that had hose fittings and valve that would directly hook up to the engine block on our JD 4450 tractor. We would hook the hoses together and the coolant would circulate and warm the block enough where we could start it at -20 F. We didn't have any electricity at this place and it was the only way we could start the tractor when we needed it. It took an hour and was not very economical.

On my Dodge Ram with the Cummins I have the block heater on a thermostat and timer. When it Drops below 0F the thermostat kicks on and the timer will start heating the block 3 hours before I start it. System works good and never has failed me, coolants warm enough that I have warm air out the vents almost right away.

Bobg

its apples and oranges, but on my f25o i usually set a timer to give me two hours of block (oil) heat in the winter mornings.