Working on Ford 8/9n's
 

I am in the begining stages of talking to my neighbors about buying their old ford. I am not sure yet, but it looks like an 8 or 9n. The only problem she says it has is the hydraulic pump is out. I haven't ever worked on that old of a tractor and have never replaced a hydraulic pump. It actually has a loader that is fully hydraulic, but has been sitting outside for at least three years. So a few questions.......

How hard is it to change the pump?
What is a fair price if it runs (other than the pump) I was thinking about $750-1000 since it has a loader.

if it has a fully hydraulic loader then it has an add on pump and depending on what make, model, and who slapped it on there there are many different answers as to what it will take to change or fix it.
If the hyd pump for the 3 point is bad then you can pick up an IT manual for less than 30 bucks which will provide detailed explanations and pictures.

running, an 8N around here can bring up to 3000 if it's in good shape without a loader.

..............The internal pump on an 8n probably doesn't have enough volume too power a FE loader , so my guess is that the tractor might have an external pump mounted at the front of the engine . I can't comment on fixing the internal pump . On some of the older 8n's the FE loader had Single acting hyd. cylinders which meant that it would lift a load under pump pressure , but , the weight and gravity was the force that lowered the FE loader . Coming down is Very slow unless there is extra weight in the bucket . , fordy:shrug:

I guess this is a more info needed sort of question. I had the similar thoughts with the loader, my question was if it had a trip bucket, I haven't seen many with a full hydraulic bucket. Sammyd, you should come down here and buy and sell where you are. A REAL nice 8 or 9 that has been "restored" with bush hog brings $2500, average is about $12-1500. Looks like more talks with her are in order to try and get more info.

I have a 9N with a loader that runs off it's own pump. The pump on the tractor is shot, but a previous owner attached a line from the loader pump to the three point. It looks like it was a fairly simple conversion, and the 3 point works well.

I have a service Manual. I'll look it up for you.

The tractor by itself should be worth $2000 if it runs.
If you REALLY want one with a loader, I'd keep looking.
A loader without power steering is NO FUN, and the 8n/9n series is not that heavy a tractor

Thanks Tinknal that would be great. Bearfootfarm, I know all about driving a tractor w/o power steering, but I don't think I will use the loader all the time, and I would rather get one with than w/o even if I am very limited. I am thinking that with the repairs needed I could get this one w/o taking on debt. Everything else that has a loader is out of my price range that I have been seeing. It gets harder every day that I have to try and do the farm work w/o a tractor.

The old Fords not only didnt have power steering, but the front axle was kinda wimpy. The best setup using an old Ford with a modern loader that I have seen, the person grafted a heavier duty front axle off some other model tractor from tractor graveyard and then added hydraulic steering. This isnt that hard and if you can do it yourself from salvaged parts, not that expensive. The 4wd rockclimbers do it to their offroad 4wds. There is even a guy who will sell a preassembled hydraulic steering kit for the old Ford tractors with all new parts and necessary brackets, etc, though at a hefty markup compared to a doityourself effort.

Besides axle and steering, the Fords also were geared a little too optimistically, thus the popularity of 3rd party "Sherman underdrive transmissions". there were even kits to put an old flathead Ford V8 in them for more power. I think however if I were going to re-engineer the whole tractor, I'd probably pick something little heavier duty than an old Ford. Perhaps some relatively modern tractor with a clapped out diesel that would be too costly to restore OEM engine to functionality.

Funk sure made a lot of the conversions. http://www.funkflyers.org/funk_tractors.htm

Here is another--- http://www.staufferv8.com/

Couple one of those V-8s to some real traction tires and you might have something IF you had the Sherman transmission. Tires needed. http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...y/scan0584.jpg

The system basically has 2 parts. The Hydraulic unit, which is the 3 point mechanism and the pump. This is all located under the drivers seat. The instructions are straight forward and SEEM fairly simple. I am a two finger typist so I'll get DW to post it in the morning.

First figure out if it's an 8,9 or 2N. Does it have both brake pedals on the same side? Does it have a 4spd. trans?
A loder on an N is a novelty more then something worth having. You can't get on and off of the tractor easily and it will take 3 men and a boy with half a day to spare to remove it and that's if you have a way of suapending it.
If the external pump for the loader is bad don't worry as you will want the loader removed if you want to use the tractor. If the internal pump is bad it's most likely from water in the oil usually from a broken or missing shifter boot. The pump is on the bottom of the rear housing. The water goes to the bottom, into the pump, and then freezes in winter breaking the pump.

Thanks, tink, don't worry about posting the instructions, as I haven't come close to an offer yet. How does your loader work, seems to be alot of animosity towards the loaders. I have driven a number of early 70's fords 18-30 hp with loaders and no PS, and I figured it would be a bit worse than them, but it seems pretty bad.

I have to disagree about the loader. Mine is a farmhand and is very utile. I have no problem getting on and off the tractor. A small portion of the rear wheel fender has been cut away and access from the side is easy. The pump is mounted in front of the tractor. It is powered by a shaft that fits into the end of the crankshaft. The loader has one way hydraulics and a trip bucket. It has it's own controls and another control for the 3 point. It is a bear to steer, especially with a heavy load in the bucket, but I'm used to driving old tractors so it really is no big deal to me. The narrow front wheels have been replaced with pickup tires so they don't cut in bad in muddy conditions. It starts very easily and is easy to work on, at least as far as the engine is concerned.

Thats interesting that the StaufferV8 is a current kit to install a flathead ford V8. Wonder what it costs to rebuild a flathead ford V8 anymore? Somebody had one on Craigslist recently for $100. StaufferV8 site doesnt give price for their kit, but found it mentioned on another forum that at that point in time it was around $850. So figure between $850 and $1000. Seems bit on the salty side for what you get.

Thing is a tractor this size doesnt need that size engine. Think if I were wanting to repower tractor this size, I'd look for something like 70s era 151cui Pontiac 4cyl (the older ones had the standard I6/V8 bolt pattern) and couple it to a short GM truck granny 4spd and use those together as a unit, then connect from truck transmission to the existing tractor transaxle. This would let the 4cyl run higher rpm for more power, yet the truck transmission would gear it down to a usable rpm for the tractor, and even let you get things slowed down to where you wouldnt need a sherman tranny. Have to do the necessary research on gear ratios to find right transmission. Some offered slightly different ratios.

Lets see werent the old Ford tractors set up to run about 1500rpm towards top of their governed limit? So if you ran a 4cyl car engine at 2400rpm and used a gear on truck transmission that allowed you to cut that in half you would be about right. Slower than stock but pto should still be usable. And lot more power. At 2400rpm the car engine should hold up pretty well and provide decent economy. Probably want to add a belt driven governor. Not as showy as a V8 with dual exhaust stacks and doing wheelies, but lot more practical. A V8 directly connected to tractor transmission, developing 100+ HP at 3000+rpm would be pointless except for show. You would have to run the V8 at only little above idle to make the tractor at all useful in practical way as a tractor. No small V8 I've ever seen developes 100hp at 1500rpm nor comes close to peak of its torque curve. Now something like Ford 300 straight six might be happy enough directly connected and running at 1500rpm since it developes max torque at 1800rpm and prefers running at that rpm in my trucks. It would be wildly overpowered for this tractor anyway so running at 1500rpm would probably not be a problem. And you can idle a 300 down to like 400rpm without too much trouble. Probably want to use a smaller carb than standard to get more precise control at lower rpms since you would never take it much over 1500rpm.

$750 to a $1000 for an N series Ford tractor????

Where do I sign up??? That is a bargain when compared to prices around here.

The cheapest Ford N series that I have ever seen was last winter. It needed 2 rear rims, 4 tires, the head was off of it, was an admitted oil burner, and looked like it had an engine fire. Oh, also, there were gear problems in the transmission. Price? $1250 FIRM.

Anyone dumb enough to buy that tractor would have had $2000 + in it before it ever moved.

HJ I've got a Mercury flathead V-8 that would be great for the Stauffer kit. Think it is 90 horsepower. Should make an interesting parade tractor.

I saw a Funk tractor last year while eating in McDonalds. I was preparing to leave when a couple of men pulled in with it on a trailer (parade time). I hastily exited as they came toward the building and asked them about the tractor as it seemed to have an extra long hood. Looked really nice and they did have it parade ready.

The price of N series tractors has dramatically fallen here since the later compact tractors are beginning to hit the market in greater numbers. Given a choice for a smaller tractor most will opt for a later more usable tractor. Usable via diesel, hydraulics, 4 wheel drive, higher 3 point lift capacities, power steering, more gearing, etc.

For a number of years the Mennonite folk kept all of the N tractors bought up, even the salvage ones. They had a program to refurbish them and ship them to Africa or somewhere for low tech tractors for farmers there. I don't know if they still do or not. Haven't heard about the program for several years. I seem to recall that they donated more than 200.

I believe this program is still going on. Just last winter, a guy on allischalmers.com posted pics of a Ford N series that they had restored. It was going to Africa with a mission.

It really was quite a restoration. Not a single thread on that tractor was untouched...very awesome...and the paint...wow!!! That was a tractor I would have loved to own, and I am not a Ford fan.

Photos of the ones I've seen indicate them to be in show room condition and probably better than new. Great program.

I highly respect the Mennonites for their many humanity programs, especially the building trades.

I am not N-Ford fan. Prices seem all over the place here. I've seen couple sad sack versions advertised less than $1000, but think they sell pretty quick. There is somebody on craigslist here now with a 2N that has new rear tires and they say runs good for $1500. With those new rear tires, thats not a bad deal if it meets your needs for a tractor. Then there are those trying to sell old 8Ns for $4000. Thats crazy, I dont care if it was totally rebuilt to better than factory new, its just not worth that kind of money. Saw a JD "A" listed recently for $600. Didnt run, but they said engine turned. Tires were rotted pretty bad from what I could tell in pics. Kinda depend on condition of the engine, but to be honest, I'd rather have a JD "A" in good condition than a ford "N" in good condition. And rather close to me, somebody had a Long something or other with a dead diesel and not great, but usable tires for $700. Much more modern tractor, but can pretty much guarentee the engine wouldnt be worth fixing IF you could find the parts. Have elderly friend few years back with a Romainian made Long and it took him 6 months and $400 just to get starter rebuilt. This was like a 30hp tractor!!! But something like that if cheap enough, you could adapt a small gas car engine, sure it would make ok homestead tractor. Limiting choice to some specific brand and model will cost you.

Speaking of adapting engines to tractors----I tend to recall that the way an Oliver engine coupled to the drive train would make for an easy conversion. I'm speaking of the 1960s tractors. For some reason I tend to remember a simple shaft coming out the back of the clutch bell housing that coupled to the transmission.

an A had about 10 more ponies than the N, it had taller tires and newer ones had a couple more gears...of course you'd rather have an A

Narrow front, high center of gravity making it more prone to tipping, no 3 point, .......

Depends on what you want in a tractor. Nothing wrong with an A but to say that an N series has no advantages over an A is just not true.

The F-series Farmalls had the mini driveshaft as did my old MH444. And if the 444 had it, probably the earlier 44 did too. But really as long as you can keep the input shaft of the original transmission straight and centered, its not huge deal. People did it all the time making a doodlebug with two truck transmissions, one in front of the other. Hooking a car engine plus a truck transmission in line with tractor transmission isnt really any different. I suppose if you couldnt mount the car engine plus truck transmission low enough for everything to fit inside frame and be inline with the tractor input shaft, you could box in a bit in front of tractor transmission and use a carrier bearing to support the front of input shaft. Then you could use a ujointed driveshaft from the truck transmission.

In farm safety class the numbers on sideways rollovers were higher with wide front tractors. Farmed pretty much for over 30 years and always had some sort of narrow front tractor, won't be without one. Driven properly they are the handiest things around.
Not all As were narrow fronts either.....
The A was much more tractor than any N even the NAA. The only advantage an N might have had was the 3 point but you can get anything built for 3 point in a trailer type as well, plows, discs, mowers etc. Which are easier to hook up and IMO follow the land better than anything hooked up to an Ns 3 point.

Post hole digger? Snow blower? Back blade?

I have a 24 inch Sherman backhoe for my 9N.

They used to sell kits to put a 3pt on just about any old tractor you could imagine. But really if you weld its not at all hard or expensive to build one yourself. I had an old Allis WD with the Allis Chalmers proprietary lift. Had couple 3pt arms I got for $5 at an auction. The rest was just some extra pins and few pieces of scrap iron. Nope, no draft control, but for the common 3pt stuff like brush hog, it simply wasnt a problem. I simply positioned everything based on 3pt system on a modern tractor about same size. Worked fine. Only thing I hated about the WD, was that first gear was too fast for kind of uses I wanted it for. Otherwise great tractor for its age.

Now if you have some tractor so ancient it doesnt have hydraulics of any kind, then its going to be a bit more effort required. As feeble as some of those early hydraulic systems were, I'd almost guess a power steering pump could about handle what they did. Remember way back then, hydraulics was usually limited to operating one single acting cylinder. But for sure there are better add on hydraulic pumps.

As to a 3pt backhoe, I dont like them, makes backhoe stickout too far back of the tractor. You want a backhoe so when its mounted, the outriggers are just behind the tread on the rear tires of the tractor. You want it mounted as close to the back of the tractor as possible. Have it sticking back very far and you better have lot weight on front of the tractor.

My backhoe isn't 3 point, it mounts to the frame and runs on it's own hydraulic system run off the pto. I just mentioned it to demonstrate the versatility of the tractor.

never had a post hole digger or a back blade. Had a snowblower on a Leyland once.
Wouldn't want one on an N

You mean like this tractor? http://johndeere2cylinder.homestead....oe_in_pond.jpg

Course I grew up with Farmall Super H and Farmall Super M so have rather fondness for them. This one has been modified with wide front and hydraulic steering.

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6164/modifiedhpic6.jpg

Course I aint all that picky. Wouldnt object to one of these parked in my front yard.

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/1390/a4774.jpg

Similar. Mine is a bit bigger.

When I was a kid we had an old H with a narrow front and a giant loader. It made several credible attempts to kill me over the years.

Was it one of those big old boxy frame looking things. Grandpa had one for his H. Something like this though think his had smaller bucket:

http://www.tractorshed.com/photoads/upload/123904.jpg

I can imagine the big wide bucket on this tractor would not be a good thing.

I never understood the draw to the 9n/2n/8n/NAA Fords once you got beyond the 3 pt. Clumsy, underpowered, built light and cheap. And today you set an 8n and a Case VAC with the Eagle hitch side by side and the Ford will bring 3-4x the money of the Case, same for an Ollie, MM, IHC, etc. Dumb. IMO Ford never made anything approaching a real tractor till they came out with the 800 series.

shhhh you'll anger a lot of folks with talk like that....

Yeah, LOL, that looks about right. I actually flipped it over once when it was standing still!

I never understood people who feel that they have to prove that one tractor is better than another. This starts to look like the politics thread after awhile.

Growing up in farm country the arguments were never "my dad's tougher than your dad", they were "my dad's tractor is more powerful than your dad's".

I can picture actual fifth graders reading this thread.