starter issues
 

96 chevy s-10 4.3

Started having starter problems with the s-10 last night.. (replaced it about 4-5 months ago.

It sounded like it was spinning but not engaging the gear.. every once in a while it would sound like it was locking up with the flywheel.

Anyway I pulled it and had it checked. passed with flying colors. so I brought it back home and put it back in. Same problem

One thing I did notice.. We had a crate engine dropped in it right after replacing the starter and they didn't put the plate (that fits between the hogshead and the motor) back on.. Don't know that this would have anything to do with it but....

Anyway I noticed when I'm putting it back in that (after its tightened up) it doesn't look as if its sitting in their straight.. Looks like the back end is to high (at least the front end is not parallel to where the plate would be).. Never had shims in it before.. it feels kinda spongy when I'm tightening the bolts.

any ideas?

SO, did this problem start immediately after the new engine was put in or did the starter work for a while with the new engine in place?

Nope just started.. Was working fine up until last night

I have no clue what plate you are referring to that was left off. Did you rotate the flywheel and see if it has all of it's teeth? Did you check starter tooth engagement position to the flywheel to see if shims are needed? Instructions with starter should have shown how this is checked. There is a good chance you still might have starter problems or solenoid problems. The solenoid when energized pulls the fork which moves the starter gear and also puts power to the starter motor to make it spin.

I'd pull the starter off, check the teeth on the flywheel ( and hope they are still intact ) and then look at the teeth on the starter pinion for marks to show where its contacting the flywheel.

I'm not sure what you mean by hogshead, but if the mounting attachment isn't rock solid I would certainly figure out why right away before a misaligned starter chews up the flywheel teeth. If a plate is missing that is needed to get the right starter to flywheel engagement that could certainly cause the misalignment and spongy mounting....

I think the "hogs head" that PC is referring to is the torque converter and I'd imagine the cover that is missing is the tin cover that exposes the fly wheel when it is removed.

If the starter and fly wheel weren't meshing, you'd certainly hear it! I'm wondering if the starter throw gear is not working. Perhaps the starter is just spinning and the gear is not moving forward when it spins.

exactly the part cabin.. This was my thought also which is why I pulled it and had it tested... It spun up and threw the gear out there like its suppose to.. which is why I'm thinking something must be wrong with the alignment..

The 'throw gear' that is being mentioned is correctly called a 'bendix'. If you missing the (basketball sized or larger) plate of sheet metal that goes between the engine and the transmission, of course the starter will misalign and cause problems.

I bought an old Ford many years ago for $50.00 because the owner was baffled as to why the starter so often failed. It lasted many years after such a plate was installed.

any idea what this plate is called?

also will I need to physically seperate the engine from transmission to put it in? I'm guessing the mechanic that did the engine swap either left the plate on the old engine or forgot to put it back in, because I know it was there before

I'm wondering if this plate may have only been under a portion of the starter. If it was only under the portion of the starter closest to the engine removing it would align the gear further away from the fly wheel. Try using a washer between the starter and the housing on the holes close to the engine.

its not a shim per se.. And at any rate the bolts go up into the block not into the bell housing on this model :(

Thanks for the idea though.

I know what the piece looks like but I can't imagine what its called or where I'd find one.. It covers the end of the transmission (ie without it you can watch the fly wheel turning real good.

Do your starter bolts have enough thread? I know this sounds foolish but I have seen this. GM had some starter heads that required shorter bolts as the bolt didn't have enough thread on it to tighten the starter to the block. With the starter off insert a bolt and see how it looks. Also did you chase the threads in the block? i have seen bad threads in a block not allowing the starter to pull up tight.
Just some thoughts and non costly things to check.

whats strange to me (forgot to mention this, sorry).. When I put the bolts in they are finger tight till about the last 2-3 turns then they snug up fast.

I did run the bolts up into the block while the starter was out to be sure they hadn't been cross threaded or any such..

I'm going to have to go out and pull it again before I can tell much else and I'm guessing I'm going to have to get that plate (hopefully the mechanic still has it but I doubt it).. anyway won't be able to do that for a little while.. Got ice and now snow.. LOL I love the weather.. just wish I had a garage to work in. LOL

You may have just answered your own question when you said the bolts go in freely then snug immediately. The bolts, with the shield missing, are too long IMO. You are not getting the starter snugly mounted and the starter is moving around. Either get some shorter bolts or put a couple of washers on each bolt.

PS........ I did not read Beeman's post until after I posted....he is right as per usual.

thanks I'll try the washers first.. Dang.. Wish I could get out there today.. I'd like to get er goin cause it sucks less gas than the c-20.. LOL

The "plate" you mentioned is probably just the dust cover over the lower 1/3 of the flywheel and has nothing to do with the mechanical workings of the starter. I know very little about Chevy starters other than they sometimes require shims and the bolts are special made with tapered ends and cross hatches on the shanks to easily ID them as starter bolts. Does it make a whinning/screeching sound when starting or "skip" when turning the motor?? As #5 would say--more imput. wc

it makes a whiring sound.. if you continue to crank on it, it will start to make a grinding sound (like its locked with the flywheel)


the bolts though as you say have the taper and crosshatching.

All of the starter bolts have the cross hatching and the taper/shoulder. I put a different starter on my race car and that's when I encountered the different bolt problem. I had never seen or realized it before as I hadn't interchanged one and had the wrong bolts. You would see it right away if you had the starter off and slid a bolt in the head, the threads wouldn't be long enough.

I can't remember what the flywheel underpan looks like on that truck, I take it you've got a 2 wd. Is the pan tin or was it cast aluminium? It shouldn't change the starter alignment from what I can remember.

yep its 2wd.. To be honest I don't know what it was made from. from the look I'd guess aluminium but don't remember for certain.

well I finally got good weather and a few minutes to pull it off.

Looks like the bolts were bent!!

I went and picked up some to day.. Not sure if they're going to work (they're a bit longer than the old ones.. Have to wait to see.

One bit of bad news though Is I put the new bolt into the block and they're loose. (ie.. apperently whatever caused the bolts to bend made them wobble also). They are the right size bolts. the hole has been reemed from the wobble.

I don't know if I'm going to have to re-thread the block and get bigger bolts or if they still make some stuff (re-core?) that you put on the bolt and it expands (Sorta like an wall ancor I assume).

Sounds like the bolts came loose, causing them to get bent by the starter torque, causing the threads to get messed up. Could you get the new bolts tightened up properly? If not, you have have to drill the holes out and use a tap to cut new threads to go to the next size bigger bolt.....that's what I would do anyhow.

There are some thread repair mechanisms, but they mostly involve drilling out the hole to a larger size, then using a special tool and glue to glue in some new threads.

http://www.emhart.com/products/helic...FQGPWAod-00mVw

So there are repair options, hopefully there were enough threads remaining to get the bolts torqued down properly and you won't have to do anything.

Re read my posts and check the length of the bolt sticking out the end of the starter housing. It sounds like you possibly had the wrong bolts and that is what caused what you have now.
I would be careful about doing anything to the block as the starter places a large amount of torque on the bolts and block. Slight mis alignment might start the truck but can cause constant starter/flywheel problems down the road.
Be sure you are using starter bolts and not just some bolts that are long. Some parts stores carry some starter bolts but you might need a dealer. Be careful or you will be replacing the engine again if you break off the corner of the block, and this happens quite often from problems like this.

Any chance that the bolts are English and should be Metric? Possibly just a slight difference but enough to cause a problem.

Good call!! Just called the dealer and thats the deal.. Bolts I bought are english.. Dang O'reilly's :)

now I got to cross my fingers that the threads in the block aren't damaged from the old bolts

well... got the new bolts and the go in and tighten ok.. Still got the same issue with the start though.

It is solid now but still sounds like its spinnning and grabbing the flywheel every now and again.

I talked to the dealer about that missing plate.. He said it is just a dust cover and wouldn't have anything to do with the alignment.

Guess I'll get it up on jacks and take a looksee at the flywheel.. see if its chewed up..

If anyone has other thoughts....

got some shims. Any tricks to keep them in place while I try to get the start in place? Issue is that I can't leave the bolts extended all the way through while I'm putting it in (to tight an area to work with.

I am going to say its the flywheel.
if its automatic, the flexplate, if its the flywheel its a ring that goes around the flywheel.

IF you have a dustplate that covers the lower half of the flywheel and transmission, you can remove it and turn the flywheel by hand.
IF not, the only way you can turn it is through the starter hole or use a ratchet and a socket and put it on the bolt into the harmonic balencer and turn the motor that way. All ya need is maybe a 1" turn. Then you will know for sure if you ground off a tooth or two.

that is what I did today.. Didn't see any damage on the teeth (checked it twice while I was under there..

Correct shims have a slotted hole so you just remove 1 bolt and loosen the other. The shim then slips in and you reinsert the other bolt.

Do you have the instructions from the starter that explain how to measure and shim?

you know some of those gm starters are metric some standard. you could have either a metric flywheel standard starter or the opposite. if the end of the starter looks like its riding high you need to shim it so its level

by the way most starters come with shims in the box and a small rod that is used to measure and place the shims. i knwo at our store we have tons of the shims taped together with the spacing rods that people leave behind and we give them away to anyone that needs one. go ask at your local auto zone or advance and they will give you some im sure.

also agree on the bolt length without that cover the bolts rent tightening all the way because they dont have threads the entire length of the bolt so you need to either put the cover on or put a washer on the bolts then check to see if you need the shims

Heres what ya do.
Squirt some cheap paint on the end of the bendix gear. engage, then look at the gear. if its not shimmed far enough the gear should ride against the side of the flywheel and scrape off the paint. IF its not coming close enough to the fly wheel from the bottom of it, it means the plate on the starter that fits against the block is too thick and needs to be milled down.

Plus with a scrape, you can get a idea on how much to shim, just measure the distance and divide by two and you should have a ballpark area.

thats what the shims look like.. its just in a place where I can't get my hand to position it.. Thus I'm trying to figure out a way to hold it in place while I take it up between the frame, get the end into the bell housing then lower the back into position.


I don't have instructions on how to measure but the way the transmission is made (housing) I can't get in to mesure anyway.

I'm going to give the paint suggestion a try.

PCDreams, did you get the starter problem resolved?

not yet. I haven't had another good day to work on it yet though. I'm going to try and get it over to dads garage today (out of the wind) and give it a go..

well I got it over there yesterday and spent most of the day working on it.. Turns out the dealer even gave me the wrong bolts!!

they were standard 3/8"...

they were to short too..

So now it bolts up good and tight but the issue with the spinning/grinding persist.

What I figured out so far... Without shims it doesn't catch the flywheel at all.

Going back today and try the other shims and the paint test. If that don't work I guess I'll spring for a mechanic. I'm tired of messing with it and need it running soon.

If the starter drive isn't touching the flywheel you have the wrong flywheel or the wrong starter.

well I got the verdict tonight... Turns out the starter is bad.. The bindex is only responding once ever so often.. Got to take it back tomorrow and give a new one a try

problem solved
 

well it was a bad starter afterall. I got the new one installed and the issue is gone. Yea!!

Again Dangit!!
 

well I had it going and it was doing really well, until Sunday.. Just pulled the starter again and its got a busted nose cone (read its completely gone.) I haven't dug around in the flywheel housing to try to retrieve it yet but dang!! Never seen anything like this before.

I'm quite sure the fellers down at o'reilly's are going to get quit a laugh when I bring it in for warranty.