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  #101  
Old 04/05/12, 11:40 AM
 
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[QUOTE=blaineiac;5822026]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf View Post
He is crossing his mangalitsa boars with russian sows. He has been up front about this from the beginning. According to Baker, he does it because the russian sows produce more offspring per farrowing than mangalitsa, and don't have any problems farrowing outside. He can still sell the offspring as F1 mangalitsa crosses. I picked all this up from watching his various videos - many of which have nothing to do with the MDNR ISO.


I agree with the State killing them then. At least the Sows and ALL the F1 crosses. There are plenty of other breeds he can cross them to, which aren't covered by the law. I agree that the wording is a little sketchy, but his Russian sows are the specific reason for the law. Not his Mangs. I'm not for the Govt. telling me what to do, but I agree with them on this.
One reason for this law is because some people are raising these wild breeds of hog and selling them to hunt clubs . That is where many of the wild hogs that is messing up the small farms raising hogs is coming from.
Some folks are trying to say this is a law to put the small pig farmer out of business. That's not true. As far as the pig factories i have had two contact me trying to buy my natural raised pork. I prefer to sell to local folks at different weights as i get better price for them.
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  #102  
Old 04/05/12, 11:44 AM
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I don't agree with ANY plan that includes someone coming to MY FARM and arbitrarily killing my properly fenced and maintained animals - no matter what.


Hey. I don't like your cats. Some cats get loose and they are eating birds. YOUR cats look like the cats that look like the cats that we want to say are eating birds.

I think I'll kill them while you watch, k? But I get to decide. Four feet? check. Tail? check. Fur? check.



I have 3/4 Nubians. 1/4 Oberhasli. Show no outward tendencies/signs of the Obes. Obes are banned. How can I tell they are Oberhasil? Oh, right. They have four feet, tails and ears.


What's the difference?

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  #103  
Old 04/05/12, 12:00 PM
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OOOOOOOOh. Even better?

Dancing is EEEEEEEEEvil. Dancing is banned. Let's ban dancing...

oh. right.

shuffling feet? dancing. skipping? dancing.



OH! LET'S BAN HIGH SCHOOLS BECAUSE ALL HIGH SCHOOLS HAVE DRUGS!!! There. No high schools because kids might go to high school and take drugs, become incorrigible and kill us in our sleep. Yeah. Even YOUR kid.

Incorrigible = High School = disaster/kids = death.

PIGS are not the issue. FERAL ANIMALS are the issue. Feral animals have always been the issue. AND the issue is that someone somewhere in Michigan (DNR) decided they could control the feral animals by making a declaratory ruling.

I am personally pretty sure feral pigs can't read. Or they'd be high-tailin' it out of Michigan and to some other warmer area...

The irresponsible owners that allow animals to escape/turn them loose for whatever reason should be fined, sanctioned and punished.

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  #104  
Old 04/05/12, 12:58 PM
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I believe the only reason he is crossing them with russians is so he can get a similar look to his mutts which he will eventually sell as "Pure". Larger litter?... Many hogs average larger litters and still carry the "lard" gene. He is working toward being a "Pig Peddler" which I think is way worse than raising wild hogs. It appears that he is trying to get some crosses that have larger litters (which equals more money) that are gonna lose part of their lard making ability, all so he can sell more "Pure Mangs" for high dollar to unsuspecting buyers. Not only is he working this scam, he is working you people to finance his venture. Wow, I really wish this was in the least bit funny because I feel bad for laughing so hard.

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  #105  
Old 04/05/12, 02:09 PM
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If he was planing that why would he let it be known ALL over the internet? on videos BEFORE all of this. many "rarer" breeds have only a few piglets.
increasing litter size is a good thing.
mothering ability is a good thing.
being able to to farrow outside is a good thing.
have lard for specialty market a good thing.
crosses can grow faster and sometimes better then pure. example Cornish/rock chicken, cal/new Zealand in rabbits.....

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  #106  
Old 04/05/12, 02:47 PM
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Heterosis. aka hybrid vigor...

We all do it. Blue butts are just such an example... Even the CAFOs do it...

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  #107  
Old 04/05/12, 03:40 PM
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But the only reason he is crossing with russian is to keep the "look" to the mutts he is hoping on mass producing. I remember 2 years ago when the only place to get Mangs was out west and about $2000 a piece. This is no different than everyone selling Large Blacks from litters that have 12 breeder quality piglets for $300. Any quality breeder, be it dogs, chickens or hogs, is only selling 10% as breeder quality. He is trying to sell mutts as pure and wants to make as many little ones as possible.

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  #108  
Old 04/05/12, 05:00 PM
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Here is an article written last week, from the Grand Rapids Press:

Grand Rapids Press 04/05/2012, Page A01





State to enforce ban on owning wild pigs
Feral swine become illegal game April 1; some farms may offer hunters domestic pigs


BY ROSEMARY PARKER

RPARKER3@MLIVE.COM

Only 105 feral pigs were officially sighted, killed or found dead in Michigan last year, a fraction of the population wildlife authorities believe is on the loose.

But the spigot is about to be turned off, wildlife officials believe, as enforcement begins next month on an order that makes it illegal to own pig species most likely to survive in the wild.

“This is the conservation community, environmentalists, sportsmen, and agriculture” working together, said Dennis Fijalkowski, executive director of the Michigan Wildlife Conservancy in Bath.

“The DNR is doing what the state of Michigan is asking them to do. We are very strongly supportive.”

Numbers uncertain

Because they have not, to date, been regulated, it’ s not quite clear how many wild pigs were on Michigan’s 60-some game ranches last fall when the breeds were declared, by order, an invasive species in Michigan, said Ed Golder, spokesman for the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.

Nor is it exactly clear, come April 1 when the deadline for enforcing that order arrives, how state authorities will pr oceed.

The hope was that, over the winter, ranches would hold enough hunts to get rid of the animals on their farms and move on under new state rules, Golder said, or would sell the animals to ranches in other states, where they are still legal game.

“We think about half of the farms have depopulated,” Golder said. “Those are the just the swine owners we kn ow about. There could be more.”

After April 1, “our hope is to be invited onto farms voluntarily. We will be doing inspections. Follow-up inspections may be needed, depending on what we find,” Golder said. “We will, in many cases, ask property owners to handle the depopulation on their own.”

Every farm may require a slightly different approach, he sa id.

“We are in litigation with a handful of facilities, so the protocol for each visit will depend on which facility we’re planning to inspect.”

Now that exotic boars no longer will be allowed, some farms may host swine hunts using plain old domestic porkers such as those found on a farm.

“Nothing in the Invasive Species Order would prevent ranches from selling hunts for domestic swine. The order outlaws a particular type of pig, not the purpose for which the animals are used,” Golder sa id.

Weeding out feral swine

Nor does the invasive species order, aimed at reducing Michigan’s feral swine population, include domestic swine breeds such as those that have found a niche market among chefs and foodies.

The breeders of Mangalitsa pigs, for instance, were concerned that their animals might fall under the ISO, Golder said.

A letter from DNR director Rodney Stokes states in part, “It is the DNR’s understanding that purebred Mangalitsa swine do not exh ibit characteristics listed in the Declaratory Ruling, other than potentially striped piglets. The invasive species order would not prohibit purebred Mangalitsa swine based solely on this characteristic.”

However, in the event that breeders have cr ossed Mangalitsas with Eurasian wild boar or any of the swine outlawed under the ISO, those hybrid animals would still be prohibited, Golder said.

The April 1 enforcement deals with only with invasive species still in captivity, and that’s only a start, Fijalkowski said.

We’re on track toward getting rid of those behind fences, and shutting off the faucet” of animals that may escape into the wild, he said.

When it comes to wild pigs running loose, “it continues to be legal and encouraged to take feral swine opportunistically in Michigan,” Golder said — that is, shoot them if you see them.

Under the law, “a person with a concealed pistol permit or valid hunting license can kill swine running at large on public property; landowners or other authorized persons can kill swine running at large on private property; and local animal control officers and law enforcement can kill swine running at large on either public or private land,” Golder said.

“Nothing in the Invasive Species Order would prevent ranches from selling hunts for domestic swine. The order outlaws a particular type of pig, not the purpose for which the animals are used.”

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  #109  
Old 04/05/12, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaineiac View Post
But the only reason he is crossing with russian is to keep the "look" to the mutts he is hoping on mass producing. I remember 2 years ago when the only place to get Mangs was out west and about $2000 a piece. This is no different than everyone selling Large Blacks from litters that have 12 breeder quality piglets for $300. Any quality breeder, be it dogs, chickens or hogs, is only selling 10% as breeder quality. He is trying to sell mutts as pure and wants to make as many little ones as possible.
didn't know you could breed a dead pig. his offspring pigs are freezer/restaurant bond

Gailann Schrader likes this.
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Last edited by tailwagging; 04/05/12 at 05:20 PM.
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  #110  
Old 04/05/12, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
“our hope is to be invited onto farms voluntarily."
I just must say.... BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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  #111  
Old 04/05/12, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by olivehill View Post
I just must say.... BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
My thoughts exactly. Lol.
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  #112  
Old 04/05/12, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by haypoint View Post
Love to hear your plan.
Have a list of exemptions. Name, by name, all of the hogs that will be exempt so that the only ones that are left on the ISO are the ones banned.
Example: Registered heritage swine such as Large Black, Gloucestershire Old Spot, Mulefoot, Hereford etc. and their crosses are exempt from ISO assuming crosses were not a result of breeding with Russian swine.....
They can work their way through the heritage swine by name, then conventional swine by name, then everyone will know where they stand on what is allowed to be raised and what is not.
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  #113  
Old 04/05/12, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Maverick_mg View Post
Have a list of exemptions. Name, by name, all of the hogs that will be exempt so that the only ones that are left on the ISO are the ones banned.
Example: Registered heritage swine such as Large Black, Gloucestershire Old Spot, Mulefoot, Hereford etc. and their crosses are exempt from ISO assuming crosses were not a result of breeding with Russian swine.....
They can work their way through the heritage swine by name, then conventional swine by name, then everyone will know where they stand on what is allowed to be raised and what is not.
Wish it were so clear.
I've seen what happens in communities that ban Pit Bulls. People deny any Pit Bull blood and come up with all sorts of rare breeds that are crossed with Staffiford , Mastiff and a whole group that when crossed with something else can't be sure it is or isn't Pit Bull.

The same is likely with pigs. If this really were about DNR taking away heritage Breeds, why are people that raise these questionable crosses even crossing them? If people were consistant with their desires to preserve a rare breed, then wouldn't they be trying to keep the bloodline pure?

If you are raising pigs that look like Russian Wild boar or Eurasian Wild Boar or Razorback or any of the other Wild Pig varieties, too bad. If you are raising heritage varieties and are staying away from the Wild varieties, you don't have to worry.
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  #114  
Old 04/05/12, 06:51 PM
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I just must say.... BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
“our hope is to be invited onto farms voluntarily."

I think that is government speak for " But if we have to get warrents, we will."
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  #115  
Old 04/05/12, 07:10 PM
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"makes it illegal to own pig species most likely to survive in the wild"
in other words "dirt pigs" or any other then "cement pigs"

"domestic porkers such as those found on a farm."

sooo porkers found on a farm is domestic? wow isn't that what we have been saying?

"would not prohibit purebred Mangalitsa swine based solely on this characteristic.”
they also have curly tails and upright ears. and why do they get off with striped pigs? that wouldn't be far. the DNR getting to pick and choose who's gets to keep their pigs that show characteristics that are unlawful.

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Last edited by tailwagging; 04/05/12 at 07:44 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #116  
Old 04/05/12, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haypoint View Post
Wish it were so clear.
I've seen what happens in communities that ban Pit Bulls. People deny any Pit Bull blood and come up with all sorts of rare breeds that are crossed with Staffiford , Mastiff and a whole group that when crossed with something else can't be sure it is or isn't Pit Bull.

The same is likely with pigs. If this really were about DNR taking away heritage Breeds, why are people that raise these questionable crosses even crossing them? If people were consistant with their desires to preserve a rare breed, then wouldn't they be trying to keep the bloodline pure?

If you are raising pigs that look like Russian Wild boar or Eurasian Wild Boar or Razorback or any of the other Wild Pig varieties, too bad. If you are raising heritage varieties and are staying away from the Wild varieties, you don't have to worry.
Except that I've clearly demonstrated that this is not true a couple of pages ago. As currently written the rule does not protect any breed of pig from inclusion in the eradication efforts. Any. Period. Many heritage breeds have not just the one strike required, but many strikes against them according to the phenotypic qualifications in the ISO.

The eradication of feral pigs is important. More important to me than my CAFO hog farmer neighbor, as a matter of fact. My pigs are more at risk of disease transmission and injury should the feral hogs make their way to my property than those housed in barns from birth to slaughter. I want feral hogs eradicated, but as it's written this rule is inefficient and a dangerously slippery slope on which to grant a government entity unprecedented power.

The rule is broken.

One easy way to fix it, imo, would be to define "domestic production". If, by "domestic production", they mean any commercial farm producing hogs for food sales? Fantastic! Put it in writing. Problem solved.

Another option is identification. I'm not a huge fan of mandated stock IDs but if it takes care of the escape issues, so be it. Require permanent, farm-specific ID of all animals over a few days old. Put in place stiff fines for any pig caught running as well as stiff fines for possession of any animal over a few days of age without ID. Tattoos are simple, low financial barrier to entry and can easily be used for unique farm IDs.
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  #117  
Old 04/05/12, 07:46 PM
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Wish it were so clear.
I've seen what happens in communities that ban Pit Bulls. People deny any Pit Bull blood and come up with all sorts of rare breeds that are crossed with Staffiford , Mastiff and a whole group that when crossed with something else can't be sure it is or isn't Pit Bull.

.
so just ban boxer and boxer crosses too, right?
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  #118  
Old 04/05/12, 07:47 PM
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Except that I've clearly demonstrated that this is not true a couple of pages ago. As currently written the rule does not protect any breed of pig from inclusion in the eradication efforts. Any. Period. Many heritage breeds have not just the one strike required, but many strikes against them according to the phenotypic qualifications in the ISO.

The eradication of feral pigs is important. More important to me than my CAFO hog farmer neighbor, as a matter of fact. My pigs are more at risk of disease transmission and injury should the feral hogs make their way to my property than those housed in barns from birth to slaughter. I want feral hogs eradicated, but as it's written this rule is inefficient and a dangerously slippery slope on which to grant a government entity unprecedented power.

The rule is broken.

One easy way to fix it, imo, would be to define "domestic production". If, by "domestic production", they mean any commercial farm producing hogs for food sales? Fantastic! Put it in writing. Problem solved.

Another option is identification. I'm not a huge fan of mandated stock IDs but if it takes care of the escape issues, so be it. Require permanent, farm-specific ID of all animals over a few days old. Put in place stiff fines for any pig caught running as well as stiff fines for possession of any animal over a few days of age without ID. Tattoos are simple, low financial barrier to entry and can easily be used for unique farm IDs.

Are you really saying that I should be allowed to raise Russian Hogs or Eurasian Hogs as long as I say I'm raising them to eat? and that solves what, exactly?

I like the ID idea, but when we are talking about people that wouldn't let any government type on their land, how are you going to get consistant compliance?

Some folks just like to get away with something, just their way of beating the system, I guess. Look at the Emerald ash Borer. The state put a ban on hauling firewood into the UP. I heard lots of folks that thought it was a scam to make people buy firewood in the UP. Lots of folks found ways to sneak it into the UP. As a result, we now have Emerald Ash Borers killing Ash trees in the UP, spread from the State Campgrounds and spreading outward. I'll bet, there are some folks interested in raising Russian Wild Hogs, just because there is a ban on them. "Nobody's gonna tell me what to do." without weighing the enviromental costs.
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  #119  
Old 04/05/12, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by haypoint View Post
Are you really saying that I should be allowed to raise Russian Hogs or Eurasian Hogs as long as I say I'm raising them to eat? and that solves what, exactly?
Read it again:

"If, by "domestic production", they mean any commercial farm producing hogs for food sales? Fantastic! Put it in writing. Problem solved. "

Not a thing about it that'll come down to your word. If you're running a commercial farm you'll have the records to prove it. Not to be confused with a 1000 sow CAFO. Thanks to other Ag legislature commercial is already defined for us, a farm with the intent to profit. I'll get a lot of flak for this, I'm sure, but I wouldn't mind seeing those without the intent to profit weeded out anyway. It'd do some good things for both farmers and heritage pigs, imo, but that's another thread entirely.

Now, personally, I would have no problem if they worded it in such a way that exempted commercial farms raising any breed EXCEPT Russians and Eurasians. Personally, I see no reason any farmer needs russians and eurasians. Not a thing you can do with them that you can't accomplish with any number of established domestic breeds.

The enforcement on that would only get hairy when it comes to the hybrids and, as far as I'm concerned, that's splitting hairs that we really don't need to be concerned with. Eradicate the purebred population and the hybrids will be watered down with domestic blood within a couple of farrowing cycles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by haypoint View Post
I like the ID idea, but when we are talking about people that wouldn't let any government type on their land, how are you going to get consistant compliance?

Some folks just like to get away with something, just their way of beating the system, I guess. Look at the Emerald ash Borer. The state put a ban on hauling firewood into the UP. I heard lots of folks that thought it was a scam to make people buy firewood in the UP. Lots of folks found ways to sneak it into the UP. As a result, we now have Emerald Ash Borers killing Ash trees in the UP, spread from the State Campgrounds and spreading outward. I'll bet, there are some folks interested in raising Russian Wild Hogs, just because there is a ban on them. "Nobody's gonna tell me what to do." without weighing the enviromental costs.
I agree with you, some people break rules just to break rules. But by that logic we ought just do nothing at all and I think we can both agree that's not going to get us anywhere either.
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  #120  
Old 04/05/12, 08:22 PM
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So why are they just targeting wild boars would a hog ever a little pink Porky Yorkshire would turn feral in a year or so if that?

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