First time farrow, big problems

lonelyfarmgirl · #21 01/13/11, 05:24 PM

well, the lab results are in, and PRRS was negative. However, the fetuses were positive for cirrco and parvo. The vet said these two generally come together, and they probably came from those stupid auction feeders we had trouble with over the summer. He said it is easily controlled with vaccines, unfortunately every 4 months, pretty much forever.

RedHogs · #22 01/13/11, 05:50 PM

Was the circo type I or II...

It happens to every body...The lesson to learn is that if the farmer won't hand you a photocopy of health papers, don't do business with them.

I don't know what you have at the farm right now but it may be worth selling everything and starting with clean fresh stock, vacinated day one.

because you are not going to be able to sell anything but meat hogs now...

It happens, I'm very careful and it still happens to me.

Lazy J · #23 01/13/11, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonelyfarmgirl

well, the lab results are in, and PRRS was negative. However, the fetuses were positive for cirrco and parvo. The vet said these two generally come together, and they probably came from those stupid auction feeders we had trouble with over the summer. He said it is easily controlled with vaccines, unfortunately every 4 months, pretty much forever.

What a shame! The Cirocovirus vaccine has been the most effective tool to hit the swine industry in the past 5 years. The improvement in mortality rates and general health due to this vaccine have changed the industry. EVERYONE should be using a Circovirus vaccine in their health program, the effectiveness is remarkable.

Jim

lonelyfarmgirl · #24 01/13/11, 07:27 PM

we only sell hogs for meat. I don't sell stock and have no intention to. we have the demand for our meat. The vet said its in the soil. I know canine parvo stays in the soil for up to 7 years. I am going to read up on these some more. I dont know if it was type I or II.

redhogs, did you sell your stock and start over? how did it go with you?

HeritagePigs · #25 01/13/11, 07:42 PM

"EVERYONE should be using a Circovirus vaccine in their health program"

Sorry but I have to disagree. The percentage of infected pigs that show clinical signs is fairly low and mortality is even lower, from 5 to 15 percent, even though most pigs will test positive for the virus. For those farms that have closed herds and/or effective biosecurity practices, full vaccination is not cost effective. Even in lonelyfarmgirl's situation there is no guarantee that all of her future litters will have problems.

I'm just not in favor of vaccination as a preventative measure when the chances of having problems are very low (given that a good biosecurity plan is in place and being followed).

Lazy J · #26 01/13/11, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeritagePigs

"EVERYONE should be using a Circovirus vaccine in their health program"

Sorry but I have to disagree. The percentage of infected pigs that show clinical signs is fairly low and mortality is even lower, from 5 to 15 percent, even though most pigs will test positive for the virus. For those farms that have closed herds and/or effective biosecurity practices, full vaccination is not cost effective. Even in lonelyfarmgirl's situation there is no guarantee that all of her future litters will have problems.

I'm just not in favor of vaccination as a preventative measure when the chances of having problems are very low (given that a good biosecurity plan is in place and being followed).

What are your references?

In my experience the implementation of the circovirus vaccine resulted in marked improvements in overall performance of pigs even without the outward signs of disease. Many vets now feel that we have had subclinical outbreaks of Ciro in most herds in the US prior to the availability of a viable vaccination.

Jim

lonelyfarmgirl · #27 01/13/11, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeritagePigs

"EVERYONE should be using a Circovirus vaccine in their health program"

Sorry but I have to disagree. The percentage of infected pigs that show clinical signs is fairly low and mortality is even lower, from 5 to 15 percent, even though most pigs will test positive for the virus. For those farms that have closed herds and/or effective biosecurity practices, full vaccination is not cost effective. Even in lonelyfarmgirl's situation there is no guarantee that all of her future litters will have problems.

I'm just not in favor of vaccination as a preventative measure when the chances of having problems are very low (given that a good biosecurity plan is in place and being followed).

so are you saying I should not vaccinate these animals, and instead take a chance every time a sow is due that they will all be born dead? that sounds like flushing time and money down the toilet instead.
we have a very small herd, and don't intend on bringing other in, but unless someone farrows a live litter by spring, we may have to buy some more feeders. I hope not. That is why we got the summer group. We were short and had to bring some in.

HeritagePigs · #28 01/14/11, 12:16 AM

lonelyfarmgirl, I think you should seriously consider vaccinating your herd; your chances of continuing problems are much higher than most. I just don't think that vaccinating everyone else's hogs makes sense. The dramatic benefits that LazyJ spoke about just don't exist and the risk to the average herd is fairly small. Every pig in the U.S. will probably test positive for circovirus 2. By itself, it doesn't seem to cause problems. It's the presence of other infectious agents that triggers its harmful effects.

Lazy J:

http://www.thepigsite.com/articles/1...d-welfare/813/
http://www.nadis.org.uk/DiseasesPigs/PMWS%20Update.pdf
http://www.pighealth.com/circovirus.htm
http://www.addl.purdue.edu/newslette...ing/ccad.shtml
http://vetmed.iastate.edu/research/l...al-information

enough?

Lazy J · #29 01/14/11, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeritagePigs

lonelyfarmgirl, I think you should seriously consider vaccinating your herd; your chances of continuing problems are much higher than most. I just don't think that vaccinating everyone else's hogs makes sense. The dramatic benefits that LazyJ spoke about just don't exist and the risk to the average herd is fairly small. Every pig in the U.S. will probably test positive for circovirus 2. By itself, it doesn't seem to cause problems. It's the presence of other infectious agents that triggers its harmful effects.

Lazy J:

http://www.thepigsite.com/articles/1...d-welfare/813/
http://www.nadis.org.uk/DiseasesPigs/PMWS%20Update.pdf
http://www.pighealth.com/circovirus.htm
http://www.addl.purdue.edu/newslette...ing/ccad.shtml
http://vetmed.iastate.edu/research/l...al-information

enough?

Yep, I've read part of those links as well as attending Circovirus Symposia at the 2007, 2009, and 2010 American Association of Swine Vetarinarians Annual Meetings. The "dramatic effects" (your words) have been seen in commercial operations after the initiation of vaccination programs using the CircoVirus vaccinations.

This brief discussion of two cases illustrates the increses in production I mentioned: Dr. Minton Case Studies

Research from Iowa State University showed that a small portion of herds are infected with ONLY PCV, 1.9% of samples evaluated. As you stated the problem is coinfection with PCV and other organisms which was illustrated by the experience of the OP.

With that said a sound vaccination protocol for pigs should include PCV, I'd use the Boehringer Ingleheim product right now as the Fort Dodge vaccine has some adjuvant problems.

Jim

lonelyfarmgirl · #30 01/14/11, 12:27 PM

what kind of problems are you seeing in the fort dodge vaccine?

HeritagePigs · #31 01/14/11, 01:05 PM

Lazy J: I'l agree that confined industrial operations need different protocols simply because of the conditions. When you put hundreds of hogs in close contact then any infectious agent can move quickly through the herd and cause effects that can be much more significant than lesser numbers kept in loose, perhaps closed, groups.

With that, is your recommendation meant only for confined, industrial operations or do you believe all herds, regardless of numbers and environment, should be vaccinated? If so, why? Do you believe the costs for the average small farmer are justified?

Brian

RedHogs · #32 01/14/11, 02:10 PM

brian, i understand your resistance to vacination programs... they are alot of work, they can be expensive...

If a family is only raising feeders... It's a numbers game and with the cost of buying a vial with 25 doses, it may be cheaper just to lose a few...

The question here is breeding disorders...

The idea that we have small breeding farms scattered throughout the nation without vac programs is insane...

That's why we have laws...

Currently If you sell breedingstock across state lines, you MUST have health papers...

If you don't your breaking the law...

I believe a family with a few hogs in the back yard for a few months raises no real serious herd health threat.... They can choose to vacinate or not

but I believe any farm engaged in the business of selling animals that leave his or her farm and end up at another farm should be vacinated and tested.

We don't need an arguement, we need strict enforement and harsh fines for those who flaunt the current law... Think about this...

The OP is in this mess beacuse he or she unfortunately did business with a sloppy farmer...

5 feeder pigs at 30 cents a peice cost of vacinations and this thread would not be happening... It's the original farmer's fault...

He needs to be held financially responsible for spreading bugs.

HeritagePigs · #33 01/14/11, 02:52 PM

Agree, in part. We ship piglets all over the map and comply with all USDA, IATA, foreign and state regulations. But there are no regulations that hogs be vaccinated that I am aware of. Most states and the IATA only require a health certificate. The few states that require testing only require brucellosis and pseudorabies testing. And a very few require that you state that you haven't fed garbage to the hogs. But that's it.

So it's easy to comply with the law and there is no good reason not to. But just having a health certificate only means that the veterinarian has not seen any signs of ill health and, if tests were done, has received negative results for brucellosis and pseudorabies infection.

Now, if we convinced our regulators to do so, there could be a requirement that all hogs be vaccinated against all know infectious diseases (for which effective vaccinations exist). But to do so would make hogs much more expensive and would drive some small producers out of the business (which some people think big Ag would like to do). I think that would be pretty dumb since the risks of most infectious diseases causing serious problems is so very low (as long as common sense biosecurity measures are followed).

"The idea that we have small breeding farms scattered throughout the nation without vac programs is insane..."

No, it isn't. It's common sense backed by good science. And it helps to encourage more folks to have and keep small farms.

ADDED: Just one minor clarification and I know what you meant.

"Currently If you sell breedingstock across state lines, you MUST have health papers...

If you don't your breaking the law..."

Actually, if you IMPORT stock across state lines without health certificates you would be breaking the law. The onus is on the importer, not the seller.

ADDED 2: Just also FYI, several states prohibit the importation of swine vaccinated with the pseudorabies vaccine.

olivehill · #34 01/14/11, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonelyfarmgirl

so are you saying I should not vaccinate these animals, and instead take a chance every time a sow is due that they will all be born dead? that sounds like flushing time and money down the toilet instead.
we have a very small herd, and don't intend on bringing other in, but unless someone farrows a live litter by spring, we may have to buy some more feeders. I hope not. That is why we got the summer group. We were short and had to bring some in.

I have to ask because this just mystifies me. I remember the thread on those feeders. And now this. And you'd actually consider under ANY circumstances bringing more auction pigs in? Why? I mean, why to begin with is perplexing enough. What were you short on? Orders for clients or for your family? If for your family, cut back eating so much pork. If for clients, why are you selling more than you can produce?

I'm not trying to be rude, I really just don't understand why you're operating the way you are/what your rationale is?

You seem to be trying to combine a bit of both worlds -- mass-production/confinement/conventional with small/sustainable/alternative -- but in a disastrous, rather than productive way. There's a heck of a case to be made for taking a middle road, but not like this. You can't source stock from unreliable places and then produce them effectively on an alternative bio-security/prevention program; the two are mutually exclusive.

I think Brian and LazyJ would both agree on one thing -- we need and should be striving for the healthiest U.S. swine herd possible. They just represent two different ideas about how to accomplish that. Unfortunately, I think some people get information from both camps and then combine it without a full understanding of the complexity of the issues and then this is what happens -- and it serves to further put the herd as a whole at risk as well as widen the rift between the two schools of thought. Because one side "blames" the other for it and vice versa.

So I guess what I am asking is, what are your goals with your swine operation? What principles would you like to use in production and why? Maybe if you think through them out loud here people can help come up with a plan to make it work for you in the future.

We all make mistakes. I have made my fair share and will make my fair share in the future. The important thing is that we learn from them and I just am not sure that's what is happening here if you'd still consider repeating your past actions.

lonelyfarmgirl · #35 01/14/11, 08:04 PM

I would not bring in more auction pigs. I never said that. If we have to bring in more feeders, it would be from a private individual.

Originally we started with only buying feeders as needed, but a lot of times we couldn't get any, or the price at auction was too high, or no one had any to sell. Then we came up with the grand stupid idea that we would start breeding our own, and stop screwing around with the ridiculous fluctuating hog market around here.

So we bought a bred sow and the last group of feeders we intended on buying. she killed her litter and nearly killed us, so we shipped her. I chose the fastest growing gilt with the best frame out of that feeder group as a keeper(Bee). I also bought a pair of tams. They were young. we figured by the time they were ready and gave birth, the babies would be near butcher weight by the time we needed more. Also bought a bred sow from someone on this forum, she had a litter and most of them lived. they are 100 pounds shy of ready now. Bought sow#4 on her 4 week old 1st litter. Decided 4 was enough.

over the summer, we got a call from this guy DH knows and he said, I got a dozen feeders, and they are too small to go in with my youngest group, do you want them? that was the summer group that gave us all the trouble. We took them, because my boar was a little short for the sows still, and wasn't getting them bred. Then one of the sows got a foot injury and we kept her away, so she skipped a litter. Bee is the sow that just had the stillborn litter. this was her first. The tam gilt, at 15 months old, still has yet to show any signs of pregnancy.

All 4 of our females, including Bee, all came from private individuals.

Our goal is to have just enough sows to have a litter of ten in 3 different stages of growth year round, so ideally 3 sows, and a fourth to pick up the slack. It just hasn't gone well this past year.

HeritagePigs · #36 01/14/11, 08:07 PM

olivehill: You hit on the reason I decided to speak with Lazy J and I hope my purpose is understood as trying to helpfully clarify for the readers of this forum. There are two general means being used to raise hogs today: large and small. There are a myriad of differences amongst each, granted, but in general hogs are either being raised by the hundreds in confined facilities or by the dozens on small farms. The environments have some similarities but the methods for success in each are vastly different. So when Lazy J said that everyone should vaccinate their hogs against circovirus I wanted to help clarify that, while that might make sense for large operations, it does not for small.

And that is a critically important distinction that I think people need to understand. Just because someone else manages their hogs in one way does not mean that you should. For example, many large operations would fail completely if they tried to raise all their hogs on pasture; just because it works for small farms does not mean it can translate effectively to large operations where the margins are so slim and customer expectations so high.

I've met a lot of small farmers that only raise a few hogs; when I looked at their hogs they had no tails. Why did they cut their tails off? Because that's what they heard you were supposed to do. What they haven't learned is that tails only need to be cut if the stress of close confinement causes pigs to bite each other's tails. Works for large operations, perhaps, but is totally unnecessary in small groups with a bit of room. (By the way, cutting off my piglet's tails was my first, amongst many, mistake I made when I started. Nose rings was my second.)

IMO opinion we should all learn as much about the different ways of managing hogs so that we can intelligently decide what husbandry practices would work in our individual circumstances. Don't do something just because you've seen it done a certain way, or a person with supposed knowledge and experience says so (me, especially). Learn why the technique works and under what circumstances then decide if it is appropriate for your farm.

blaineiac · #37 01/14/11, 09:13 PM

Thumbs up on that Brian. I think we are all here to learn from each other's experiences. Listen to it all but do what fits your situation.

lonelyfarmgirl · #38 04/01/11, 11:44 AM

Thought those that followed this thread would be interested to know. We vaccinated every brood animal and all the feeders once we got the results back from the lab. Our Tam sow farrowed last night with a live litter, small in number, I assume due to the virus present at conception, but they are all alive.