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great article on cattle forum on crossbreeding
The idea of straight bred herds in cattle and swine is becoming a very hot topic in the last few months, the national hog farming mag and PIC genetics and showing some really good tests (on very large scales) where the ideas on hybrid vigor, time and time again will not show up in any lab results...Farmers have accepted it as truth, but who can prove it....PIC has the knew meridam sow line that is purebred and out proforms all its crossbred lines.....The idea of crosses being better is I think now open for debate.
My personal theory is the differences seen in the past were a result of line breeding hurting the purebred performance, 100 years later we can use math formulas and create on open loop breeding within a purebred herd and now test the theory of hybrid vigor....I think the fact of too much line breeding is a bad thing can go without question, but with todays ability to ship genetics, pure herds can have new blood...so now the crosses are not at any advantage. thoughts??? |
The math is very interesting. It shows that properly done line-breeding is not only not a problem but helps the herd and you can do interesting things with it like breeding two males together over the course of several generations. That is to say, boar A and boar B effectively become bred together and the females can disappear over time from the genetics. This is of course just looking at the primary nuclear DNA.
Cheers -Walter Sugar Mountain Farm in the mountains of Vermont http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/ http://HollyGraphicArt.com/ http://NoNAIS.org |
In the real world of dusty fields and muddy wallows, it is still pretty tough to beat the vigor, hardiness, and fertility of a good crossbred hog. Seems like they just eat, grow, and rarely get sick.
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Yes, but I have not seen any indication of faster growth or healthier pigs when the boar is AI from the other side of the country...I have always heard the the term explosion to explain the use of outside genetics within a breed....The article refers to multiple college farms that see no evidence of hybrid vigor....compared to purebreeds.
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What of disposition and temperment?...It seems to me that when you breed purebred stock of any species long enough, you start to get a percentage of them that are high-strung, nervous, flighty, and other undesirable characteristics. Heck some of them are just plain nut jobs. Not the kind of stock you want to work with day in and day out.
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Temperament is highly genetic.
I carefully traced it in our pigs. Cull the animals with bad temperament. Breed and keep replacements from those with excellent temperament, among other traits of course. The result is animals that have pleasant temperaments. Happy hogs taste better too... :) Cheers -Walter Sugar Mountain Farm in the mountains of Vermont http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/ http://HollyGraphicArt.com/ http://NoNAIS.org |
The nut jobs are the same as the other undesirable traits that crop up from "throwbacks", they need to be culled and not permitted to reproduce IMO.
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I don't agree with that Walter, yes line-breeding really winds them up, sometimes to a frenzy....Thats the point I'm making, with the ability to use different lines within a breed I've seen real vigor within a breed and a calmer temperment....
That being said, agression is a highly desirable trait in show stock and breeding farms, a laid back hog is a not a good breeding prospect in many situations, feeding stalls and chutes will handle even the wildest sows....Which are not really that wild just flighty...nervous is often given a bad rap, the nervous or very attentive hogs will learn and follow a routine 10x's faster, you just have to follow the routine. I believe that up north's objection are to the all to common affects of line breeding that has infected the reputation of purebred stock....Line breeding is messed up by 99% of those trying it....I have made a commitment to not go more than two generations without a dose of completely unrelated line. |
There is a place for maintaining good purebred lines, and there is a place for the discriminating use of crossbreeding too. I mostly don't think the folks out there feeding and sorting hogs and getting their boots dirty should jump to every whim and latest published paper produced by University employees and animal scientists. The folks that publish these papers have a steady gauranteed paycheck- often funded by the tax dollars the working people pay.
Yet few of these folks will go out on a limb, buy a farm, buy livestock, and scratch out a living as a livestock producer. The true livestock producer is responsible for figuring out how he will run along in the Mystic Flats where the funds garnered from the sale of livestock pay all the expenses required to produce and leave a few dollars leftover for the family expenses. If crossbreeding is a tool that helps accomplish this then it will continue to be practiced. In our experience crossbreeding produces better fertility, longevity, and a hard to define quality that I will call "low maintainance easy keepers" for lack of a better term. I like crossbred stock and will continue to grow them. |
I'm not surprised you don't agree, RedHog. You've repeatedly stated how you like aggressive animals. I on the other hand have a family, children and other pigs to think about in a pastured situation. I make my living raising pastured pigs and I don't want to get hurt or have my family get hurt doing it.
Aggressive livestock are dangerous. Maybe you want them in your show lines but I definitely don't want aggression in my herd. Our animals are bred for calmness and are excellent growers, producers and every other trait I want. Go ahead and breed dangerous animals but it isn't necessary. I'll breed calm ones. Dangerous ones I'll cull. Cheers -Walter Sugar Mountain Farm in the mountains of Vermont http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/ http://HollyGraphicArt.com/ http://NoNAIS.org |
Walter, when someone says aggression, they don't mean dangerous..... I collect two very large boars right now...In a 5x8 stall i get in and %^&^%$#%$...If I had any concerns as to my safety I wouldn't enter the pen or consider collecting alone. These two boars are very aggressive.
That term is used for breeding aggression, the idea in that boar's mind that every sow he finds is his forever, and he will fight to the death to prevent her from being bred by another boar....That same boar that will fight to the death, will stick his head up out of the pen because he like to have his ears scatched.... If he ever makes one simple mistake with my safety he is gone for good....No negotiation. He knows me as the feed guy and sow transporter...I'm his best pal. The aggression term with sows and feeders, is feed aggression...The idea that it is my food, all my food, and I want it all now... hogs don't share and hogs that don't attack the feed trough will grow slower....If a sow even tries to bluff me she's gone...I won't have a sow that I can't turn my back on..... The exception to this rule for me is nursing momma's....I don't take offense if a sow dosn't want me getting her babies...that's her job to protect.... but when weaned I'm off limits.... You have taken a term used by hog farmers and applied you own meanings and philosphy that ever thing a large farms does is bad. The National hog farmer is running an article every month this year on sow housing options, aggression is a topic in almost every article....Never once does it suggest the use of dangerous sows, just greedy sows. I sell club and 4-H pigs to kids,,,,kids...The breeding class hogs will be very aggressive I hope, I wont take the chance with a dangerous hog. |
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All of the folks who work at our local Extension Service are good friends of mine, and I'm acquainted with most of the ones at our local USDA office. They're great people, and I like them very much. Still, the sad fact is that just about all the farms that went out of business in the last 20 years went out following the advice of the USDA and Extension offices. I also agree that temperament is a trait that can be bred for. You can breed for hogs that eat and grow well, but still have calm temperaments. It's a simple matter of selection. |
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What parameters are they using to guage performance? Feed efficiency? Average daily gain? Days from birth-slaughter?
There are some aspects of cross-breeding that I am sure many of us can attest too - improved maternal characteristics, hardiness, parasite or disease resistance, foraging ability that aren't really something one can measure in a head-to-head feeding trial conducted in a controlled feedlot situation. I think the main thing a person must consider is what are your goals? Do you want to raise fast growing hogs (or cattle, or goats, or whatever), confine them and push them hard with feed to finish them at X number of days? Or do you want fairly self-sufficient, easy to care for, hardy beasts that provide for you reliably year after year, litter after litter without a lot of inputs and labour? One thing that I've really come to realize is that there is a study/paper out there to support just about any claim :) For each paper and discovery there seems to be another one "proving" the exact opposite. Definitely a flawed system. |
No, RedHogs. You're generalizing how you want things to be. The dictionary is the standard:
aggression noun 1. a disposition to behave aggressively 2. a feeling of hostility that arouses thoughts of attack 3. violent action that is hostile and usually unprovoked 4. the act of initiating hostilities 5. deliberately unfriendly behavior |
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You have a different situation and different goals - you keep your boars, and other pigs often, in pens. I don't. I raise pastured pigs and as such I don't want aggression. Aggressive animals, as you clearly described above, are dangerous. Dangerous animals get culled. Cheers -Walter Sugar Mountain Farm in the mountains of Vermont http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/ http://HollyGraphicArt.com/ http://NoNAIS.org |
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Unbelievable.
Can't you fellas discuss anything without it turning into an argument? We all know by now that you have different goals and different methods of how you raise your hogs. Enough, already. |
Tyusclan, RedHog is the problem. I agreed with him. He then turns it around and finds some way to make it into an an argument. It isn't a matter of he and I, it's a matter of him. And perhaps he is right, he's genetically aggressive.
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Sorry, Walter, but it ain't just him.
You look for every opportunity to tell him you don't think he's raising his hogs like he should. The beauty of a free country is that he can breed for the traits that he wants, you can breed for what you want, and it's no skin off either of your noses. Just let it go. |
No, Tyusclan, I agreed with RedHog. See above. He then came back with nastiness. And it isn't just I who sees it. Defend him all you want but he's the one who's doing the attacking. I don't care how he raises his hogs. He keeps telling others they're doing it wrong. He's the aggressive one and he even admits it. Again, see above.
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I give up.
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