Miniature schnauzer, DNA testing for health history?

[Wayne02]

A couple months ago we lost our Miniature schnauzer Missy. She was 14 years old and had been an outstanding companion dog. She was the first small breed dog I've ever owned (I'm 50). Prior to that it's all been Labs, purebred or neighborhood mix since I was about 12 years old. I had been staunchly resistant to small breeds but my wife talked me into getting Missy as a puppy and the rest as they say is history.

She turned out to be an outstanding dog. She was small, yet robust enough (18-20lbs) to handle some roughhousing. She was not yappy. I cannot stand yappy dogs. Her personalty was just incredible, it was if she was half human. You could literally carry on a conversation with her, she would use her, 'woo, woo' to talk to you. (not barking)

The downside was she had significant health issues over her lifetime, many of the most serious occurring in her last three years. Off the top of my head:
- three kidney stone surgeries and multiple bladder infection bouts.
- congestive heart failure
- problems with eye discharge and some sort of small bumps on the eyelids
- lump problems under the skin (can't remember the name)
- deaf during the last two years
- multiple ear infections (yes we try to address any environmental issues and keep her ears clean)
- some sort of neurological issue with head nodding, and declining spacial awareness

I'm sure I'm forgetting some things but you get the picture. We have been blessed with having a great veterinarian doctor for our pets.

While we don't regret the money spent on Missy's care, we would be remiss to not include the subject in our discussions as to our next small companion dog. It was a very significant amount of money, many thousands of dollars. Missy was a registered purebred. My wife got Missy from a pet shop as a puppy and says that Missy came from a puppy mill, so maybe some of the health issues could be attributed to that.

My wife has been doing some extensive research over the last couple of months on other breeds that might be a good fit for us, and we have been having very detailed discussions on the subject. We (primarily my wife) raised Missy as a puppy and is willing and capable of doing it again. Ultimately we would like to go for another Miniature Schnauzer.

We have been looking at a local breeders and they allow a 72 hour period to have a 'well puppy check' done. I'm sure our vet will know what to screen for, particularly given her intimate knowledge of Missy's health history. Our vet is on vacation until next week, so I thought I'd ask here about the possibility of DNA screening for common health problems in a breed of dog. I know DNA screening is available to determine the breed of dog, but is it also available to screen for potential health issues?

Thanks

[JasoninMN]

Yes there are many diseases that can be tested for and you should buy from a breeder who does dna tests their dogs before they are bred. The breeder will know what defects their lines are known for and should be upfront and honest about it. Unfortunately, to find a breeder who does this is going to be a lot more work then just answering a ad in the paper and you may not be able to stay local. A good place to get started would be with the American Miniature Schnauzer Club.

http://www.amsc.us/health-mainmenu-27.html

[bluemoonluck]

Some specific diseases have DNA tests available - like PLL in my breed or Von Willebrand in Dobermans. However unfortunately you can't detect many diseases via DNA, those need to be tested for separately. For example, to see if a dog has hip dysplasia you need to x-ray his hips, and to see if he has a heart defect you need to do an ultrasound of the heart. Good breeders know what diseases exist in their breed and in their lines and they test their breeding stock for these diseases to ensure they aren't going to be breeding unhealthy dogs. Crappy breeders don't health test, because it cuts into their profits and they don't want to find out that one of their dogs has a health condition because then they can't breed it, and they don't want to be told no

IMO the puppy mills and BYB who supply pet shops and advertize in the local paper are the main reason that so many people have the INCORRECT assumption that purebreds are less healthy than mixed breed dogs (example: the worst cases of hip dysplasia I saw when I worked in vet clinics were in mixed breed and hybrid dogs, not purebreds). What happens is that someone buys a purebred dog from a crappy breeder, the dog then has a lifetime of expensive health issues and the person (and all their friends/family) then decide that - based upon the experience of the poorly bred purebred - that purebreds are ALL unhealthy

If you buy a pup from a GOOD breeder who health tests their breeding stock (and by health testing I mean they have OFA/CERF/etc results, not the good ol' BYB line of "of course they're healthy! They passed their last physical at the vet's office!" ) and who includes a health guarantee for their puppies, you'll find that dog to be just as healthy as any other dog, including mixed breeds.

People balk at the prices that good breeders charge, but if you want quality you have to pay for quality. If you try to undercut and go for a cheap dog, you're going to pay for it in vet bills down the road. Yeah sure, you can find a cheap Boxer in the paper for $400, and then thumb your nose at the "expensive" breeder who was charging $1500 for her puppies, and you'll feel morally superior for not being "taken advantage of" by that "pricey" breeder. But the health issues you're going to run up against in that $400 dog will end up pushing the cost of that dog to significantly more than it would be if you had just paid the $1500 up front for a pup from health-tested parents.

Don't buy your next pup from a pet shop. Don't buy your next pup from the local paper/Craigslist/local trader newsletter/etc. If you want a purebred, either get one from breed rescue or get one from a breeder who health tests and gives a health guarantee for their puppies. You WILL spend more money up front, but the dog won't have the health issues you encountered with your last dog.

[Wayne02]

Originally Posted by bluemoonluck

If you buy a pup from a GOOD breeder who health tests their breeding stock (and by health testing I mean they have OFA/CERF/etc results, not the good ol' BYB line of "of course they're healthy! They passed their last physical at the vet's office!" ) and who includes a health guarantee for their puppies, you'll find that dog to be just as healthy as any other dog, including mixed breeds.

What might the typical health guarantee look like? Is it for X time period and Y health conditions, or not that specific?

Thanks

[bluemoonluck]

Originally Posted by Wayne02

What might the typical health guarantee look like? Is it for X time period and Y health conditions, or not that specific?

Thanks

My health guarantee as stated on my contract:

A replacement pet-quality dog of the Seller’s choosing shall be offered to the Buyer should this puppy at any time be diagnosed with a serious hereditary disorder that will either significantly shorten the puppy’s lifespan or significantly impact the puppy’s quality of life.

Note that they get to keep the original pup AND get another one too, I don't take back the first pup!!

In breeds where hips/elbows are a concern, I've often seen that buyers have to have the hips OFA'd at 2 years of age (or between 24 and 26 months or some similar age) and if the dog has an OFA score of Poor at that time than they can get a partial refund or replacement dog.

Steer clear of any "guarantee" that says things like "you have to feed this specific food that you order thru my website online <which they don't mention they get a kick-back from> in order for this health guarantee to be valid", or if they say hips are guaranteed only thru 2 years of age, or a contract that only guarantees health for 1 year and after that you're out of luck.

Keep in mind that a health guarantee is supposed to be for BIG things that are GENETIC in nature. For example, if the dog develops a sub-clinical heart murmur that doesn't do anything to him, and he's going to live a long and happy active life, you shouldn't expect a replacement dog. BUT if the dog develops a Grade 4 heart murmur and has to take medications daily, have exercise restricted, and will likely die young, that SHOULD be reason to get a replacement dog.

And if the dog breaks it's leg, or eats the stuffing out of his bed and needs surgery to get it out, or pokes an eye out running with a stick in his mouth, don't expect the breeder to offer you another pup. Or if you feed the dog crappy food and it develops allergy issues or intestinal issues, that's on you - because it's not genetic and the breeder had no control over what you were feeding the dog, so it's on you.

I had one puppy owner of mine contact me saying that the dog had horrible allergies and it was costing him hundreds of dollars getting allergy shots and special baths for the dog, and he argued that it was significantly impacting his dog's quality of life, so he should be entitled to a replacement dog. So I asked him the first question I ask anyone who's having allergy issues - what are you feeding the dog? It was a cheap corn- and chicken-based food that I wouldn't feed if I got paid to feed it! I told him that the paperwork I gave him when I sold him the dog specifically stated to avoid chicken-based foods and to feed a fish or lamb-based food, because they often have allergic reactions to chicken and corn. I advised him to feed one of the brands of food I had specified in the puppy packet and to not feed any treats at all for the next 2 months and call me back. Checked in with him a few months later and he (sheepishly) admitted that the dog hadn't had any allergy issues at all since he had gotten him on one of the recommended foods.

[Wayne02]

Thanks bluemoon, very helpful.

[BarbadosSheep]

http://www.htpuppiescb.com/ This web site is a good place to start. Responsible breeders test their breeding stock for genetic conditions that are common in their breed.

Here's a link to the OFA's web site. They show the tests that should be done for mini. schnauzers. http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=MSC

Now that being said, your dog was old. 14 in a dog is sort of equivalent to a human in their 70s or 80s. Skin issues, lumps, bumps, etc. is very common in ALL old dogs, no matter how health tested their parents were. Its very rare for a dog to die of old age and not have been plagued by a number of age related health problems. Even the most responsible dog breeder in the world isn't going to guarantee their dog against age related ailments.

[CathyGo]

Originally Posted by Wayne02

Missy was a registered purebred. My wife got Missy from a pet shop as a puppy and says that Missy came from a puppy mill, so maybe some of the health issues could be attributed to that.

Pet shop puppies are some of the most genetically un-healthy dogs out there. Your dog paid the price for it. Nearly all of the puppies will be "registered" with some kind of registry. Several exist for the sole purpose of allowing a puppy mill pup to be a "registered purebred" after the AKC kicks them out. The registration means nothing. Even an AKC registration only means that both animals were of the same breed. It does not in any way guarantee that the dog is free of genetic defects.

[Rock]

Originally Posted by bluemoonluck

My health guarantee as stated on my contract:
Note that they get to keep the original pup AND get another one too, I don't take back the first pup!!

That is IMHO as it should be. People should never have to give a dog up that they have grown attached to, in order to complete the guarantee process. (Scumbag Back Alley Breeders use that as a ploy, so they wont have to provide a replacement)
Mine says that should their be problem that would require a replacement animal. It will be provided as soon as available, that subject dog causing the replacement, will be spay or neuter at Double R's expense and shall remain with their family!