Puppy nips and a 3 year old

eclipchic · #1 04/04/12, 10:37 PM

My son is almost 3 and we have a great pyrenees puppy we've brought home, they are nearly inseperable when we let them play together but this pup is bad at nipping and pulling on clothes. Lots of small holes in clothing/scratches on skin and she gets to be too much for my kiddo being as she is already heavier than him at less than 4 months old.

I don't know all of my options but I'm figuring they include-
not letting them play together without super close supervision (not really a good option)
letting them play but using a muzzle with her
shock collar for corrections when I'm not right there

she's pretty much stopped doing this with the adults now, lots of chewy toys and plenty of vocal corrections and some physical and I'm losing my mind over this! I know the big problem is that at 3 my kiddo can't offer any meaningful correction to her and the puppy is pretty much playing with her like she'd play with a fellow puppy.

any thoughts?

Kwings · #2 04/05/12, 01:02 AM

Not sure about pyrs. Have you tried a spray bottle? works on my puppy (not a pyr).

GrannyCarol · #3 04/05/12, 01:41 AM

I would NOT let them play out of your supervision. It may be difficult, but you need to be right there and train that puppy and your daughter how to interact. Otherwise you risk messing up the pup or causing some problem down the road where your daughter does something that causes the pup to treat her like a littermate that the puppy is angry with.

I found out the hard way that up to about five, kids just don't have any sort of judgment about what to do with a dog, they can be very random. My son was four and got a good nip on the face that drew blood. Turns out he'd bit my year old English Setter and the dog snapped at him back. As a breeder, knowing the dog and that he wasn't as stable in temperament as I would like otherwise, I put him down and sold his son as a hunting dog (neutered). I kept my son, but I also kept track of him a lot more closely until he was older and I knew better than to let my daughter play with dogs alone until she was older too. Little kids can so easily have a random moment and do something foolish and get hurt, not worth it.

Close supervision is the only real option - they do need to play together, but not all the time and not alone. A shock collar can backfire. If you shock the dog for being rowdy, she might associate it with your daughter and react poorly. Shock collars require quite a bit of training time to really work well.

A muzzle won't train the puppy what she needs to know - not to nip at children and good bite inhibition with people. If you play with the puppy and your daughter and the puppy gets rowdy, you can put her on a down and work on her obedience, which will calm her down and teach her manners. You can also teach your child what she does that winds up the puppy and how better to play.

lexa · #4 04/05/12, 09:02 AM

You need to be a leader of the pack and correct her when needed. For that you need to be present then they are together. Why is it not a desirable option for you?
No matter the breed of the dog, young kids and dogs should not be left unsupervised. no matter how good the dog is. They should not be playing power games ether. Your child is too young to correct the dog properly himself and by them playing the way they are, your dog learns that it is OK to play with your kid in this manner.
Muzzling is really not a good option.
Soft muzzles that keep dog from biting are only suitable for quick restraint. They do not allow the dog to open its mouth and breath properly. If it is loose enough for the dog to open its mouth it is loose enough to nip.
Basket muzzles are too hard and if you child gets hit in the face during play there would be bloody nose.
Besides, you would need to put it on and off then they start/finish playing.
Shock collar and nipping don't really go well, ether. Using it during play might turn you dog on to actually bite your child. Since the dog doesn't know where pain of correction coming from, she might perceive it coming from your child and respond in more aggressive correction herself. Have you seen puppies play and one bites too hard, the bitten one often would growl and bite harder until the offender shows submission. How do you think it would work with a child?

hercsmama · #5 04/05/12, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexa

You need to be a leader of the pack and correct her when needed. For that you need to be present then they are together. Why is it not a desirable option for you?
No matter the breed of the dog, young kids and dogs should not be left unsupervised. no matter how good the dog is. They should not be playing power games ether. Your child is too young to correct the dog properly himself and by them playing the way they are, your dog learns that it is OK to play with your kid in this manner.
Muzzling is really not a good option.
Soft muzzles that keep dog from biting are only suitable for quick restraint. They do not allow the dog to open its mouth and breath properly. If it is loose enough for the dog to open its mouth it is loose enough to nip.
Basket muzzles are too hard and if you child gets hit in the face during play there would be bloody nose.
Besides, you would need to put it on and off then they start/finish playing.
Shock collar and nipping don't really go well, ether. Using it during play might turn you dog on to actually bite your child. Since the dog doesn't know where pain of correction coming from, she might perceive it coming from your child and respond in more aggressive correction herself. Have you seen puppies play and one bites too hard, the bitten one often would growl and bite harder until the offender shows submission. How do you think it would work with a child?

Exactly!
It's a puppy and is most likely looking at the baby as a littermate,not a pack leader.
It's up to you to supervise thier time together, and assert pack status. The puppy doesn't recognize the baby as anything other than another puppy. Muzzles won't work for the reasons stated above, and a shock collar will simply teach that the baby is to be totally avoided, or more aggressively attacked.
Your supervision and training is the only responsible thing to do.
We have two Pyr pups, they chew, everything! Our old Pyr was the same as a pup. Its what they do. The good news is, with age and training your pup will grow up to be an amazing animal.

BarbadosSheep · #6 04/05/12, 09:17 AM

Using a shock collar on a young puppy can turn it into a bundle of frightened nerves in short order. That's absolutely the wrong use of a shock collar. Besides, how would a shock collar even work if you are not there to push the button? A muzzle is almost as bad. She needs to play only while supervised, and corrected when she bites. She is a baby. Babies should never be left alone with other babies, human or animal. She sees your child as a playmate, and puppies bite each other. Even though it's not your favorite option, do not let them play together unsupervised.

thaiblue12 · #7 04/05/12, 09:34 AM

They are both babies and need adult supervision, if you can't be there then they should not be together alone. This goes for any dog of any breed. This is how accidents happen, when the adult is not monitoring the situation. LGD or not she still a dog with canine teeth and needs to be trained especially while she is still in her impressionable age.

Both my LGD have been taught to never ever put their mouths on, nor even lick anyone or anything. They have both been complimented by people who come to buy goats and give them treats ( without permission! ) on how nicely they take the treats and they do not even feel their lips. No goat here is ever licked, same for chickens, they needed to be taught that level of respect and your puppy should be learning it as well. Problem is your son is too young to correct her firmly and be consistent, so you need to tell them both no. He should be allowed to throw toys, but not wrestle, he can give her treats but not pay tug or war, things like that.

She is a puppy and needs lots of training before she becomes a 100 plus lb menance. It might be thought of as cute at first but it is becoming a problem and will become even more so when she and put half his arm in her mouth.

I think it is great when kids have dog friends they play and walk with, but they both are young and need to learn the right way to become friends without any injuries.

BarbadosSheep · #8 04/05/12, 09:46 AM

I have a couple more thoughts. First, you do realize if you are using a shock collar on the pup while it's playing with your son, your son get shocked too. The current will pass right through pup and to your son. So that's another reason to not use a shock collar. Also, never.....NEVER let a 3 year old offer any corrections to a pup. He is way too young to understand how to do it right and that will only confuse the pup even more and possibly lead to aggression.

beccachow · #9 04/05/12, 11:04 AM

I have this problem too, with my 6yo DD and our 9 month old GSD. She encourages Brandy to "play" by lying on the floor, etc, and Brandy will inevitably tug at her clothes, paw her, and nip her. DD also encourages Brandy to chase her, a real fun game until Brandy gets overcome with excitement and nips or jumps on her.

I have had to take the role of pack leader; I have explained to DD over and over that Brandy thinks she is another puppy and will continue to behave this way until she:

Stops allowing the dog to walk on her or in any other way elevate herself above DD

Stops encouraging the chase when she (DD) is unable to end it satisfactorily

Gets control of the situation BEFORE Brandy does something puppy-ish

Figures out how to distract Brandy with a toy BEFORE the pup gets riled up

For my role, anytime Brandy and DD play together I am on hand to physically STOP rough play, for both DD and Brandy. I have to explain how it is not fair to Brandy that DD encourages her play, then all of a sudden gets angry and shoves her away and screams at her. It isn't the dog's fault, she is just doing what puppies do. When DD turns from playful friend to screaming at her she is setting Brandy up for failure in the future, quite possibly embedding an instinctive distrust in her of ALL children, and that is BAD. At this stage, I can't expect DD to "get it" and have to direct all play time, including physical separation when Brandy gets too excited. You must stay vigilant; as I said, mixed signals from the child and the parent who gets there too late to stop a nip and now punishes the pup for what she sees as natural play is a recipe for disaster in the future.

Taking on a pup with a small child is challenging; you now have TWO children to watch. Your son and the pup will be truly inseperable as soon as YOU have led the way and shown both what is acceptable. I am willing to bet a dollar the play sessions go like this:

Son lays on the floor and thinks it is grand fun to let pup walk on him, lick him and paw at him. (Major no no, only a pack leader gets to be elevated above other members in the pack, this is why furniture laying can be dangerous). The pup, in his pea brain, thinks he has made his point by standing on son.

Son now decides it isn't fun any longer and tries to remove pup, who sees his rolling around and shoving as more play. Pup turns up the heat.

Excitement in pup now overshadows any fun son was having and pup becomes more forceful, nipping at anything (such as clothes) in an attempt to keep the fun going.

Tears make an appearance, pup has no idea he was wrong. Enter mom, who promptly physically removes pup and perhaps tries to correct him after the act. Pup is now confused and next time will show more dominance quicker in the next play round.

Or...

Son decides that running is so much fun, look how pup chases.

Pup is excited by the game but being a pup, has no idea how to direct her excitement and plays with son like another running pup.

Son gets knocked down, pup stands or walks on him. Son is not having fun any longer. Screaming or tears follow, mom takes control and again, corrects pup after the action. Pup makes mental note for next time and gets more physical, faster. Mom gets out her sewing needles, muttering that the pup is evil.

I am smiling because I have BEEN there and still am. I feel for you because 3 is so much younger than 6 in every way, including size, emotions and ability to comprehend. It must be a fiasco at times in your house; I know it sure is here!

I had a wonderful mentor here who got me started trying to figure out doggie behavior. I took all her great knowledge and went to the internet, fascinated by doggie behavior. I learned quite a bit about WHY they do things, but am still clueless how to FIX the behaviors!

Anyhow, bottom line, what is cute as a puppy is thoroughly unacceptable in a huge dog with the mindset of any LGD. Your sweet son can't differentiate between play and that moment when play becomes something else, and he needs you to be there to quickly put the lowest pack member in his place.

Duke watches Brandy do all kinds of nutty things. He lays there like grandfather doggie, indulgently allowing his granddaughter to have her fun, chew shoes, knock over water bowls, whatever. But a few things have lifted him up off the floor and on the scene faster than anything; one, anytime Brandy makes DD cry and more recently, when Brandy and the chow fight (as in REAL fighting). He gets up and shoots over and everyone disperses without a "word" from him. He simply leads by his presence, or any number of invisible signs I don't see. I am actually striving to be Duke, lol. His level headed, calm diffusing of a scene is amazing, and the approach I take now when separating Brandy and DD. No screaming from me, no snapping or knee jerk reaction, just calmly putting things right.

You guys will get through these growing pains, but be very aware that everything pup is doing now is grooming him for his relation to your "pack" later, and what we think is innocent might not be as innocent as we think when he takes what he has learned and turns it back on the "pack." Don't let them play without you right there, and stop the pup before his excitement gets too great; redirect him to a toy or something and praise him for stopping himself. Also, be sure to grab pup off DS, not the other way around. Dog language

.

Good luck!

lexa · #10 04/05/12, 12:28 PM

I also wanted to add that I understand how frustrating it is sometimes, to have puppy and a toddler. My DD was 2 when I brought a 4 mold JRT puppy home. It was constant: "DD, don't run" "zack, leave it", "DD, trow toy not raise it above you head". In the end it worked out.

beccachow · #11 04/05/12, 12:33 PM

LOL @ Lexa...Brandy thinks her name is Brandy NO!!!

Maura · #12 04/05/12, 01:09 PM

I know a lot of people think that the whole "alpha" thing is ballyhoo. However, I have to agree with Beccachow about hierarchy. Your puppy needs to learn that the kid outranks him. As everyone has told you, you must supervise and when you can't, put the puppy outside, in another room, or in a crate.

Teach your DD to play with a toy that can then be translated to playing with the puppy with the toy. This could include fetch, but I'm not sure a Pry will fetch. This could include tug of war. Choose a toy, a rope toy works well. Play tug with your child, then with the puppy. YOU teach the puppy that whenever a tooth touches human skin the game ends. YOU teach the puppy that he must sit and wait for the tug command before grabbing the end of the toy. This means a week of committed tug play between you and the puppy- possibly longer. With the tug, the puppy's mouth stays on a toy and he learns to pull gently in order to continue the game. My toddler brother and 80 pound Irish Setter played "hang onto the sock" and had a great time. Blue learned exactly how fast he could shake his head and keep the laughter going, how fast to trot around with my brother being dragged along, etc. However, Blue was very very smart and very gentle.

YOU teach your daughter that the only tug toy is a rope toy, nothing else.

I taught my border collie to play "I'm gonna get you" (read about it in a book) where he is chased by a human. He'll pick up any toy and walk or run from the human. This keeps border collie teeth off children and gives the kids a way to play with the dog where they will be safe. It is appropriate with children too young to understand the game because the dog thinks the child is playing with him and stops trying to herd him.

On the hierarchy thing, have your child feed the puppy once a day. Puppy must sit before getting food. Most children will drop the food one kibble at a time or one wee handful at a time. Put the child on a stool so he is taller than the puppy and is out of reach for jumping up.

eclipchic · #13 04/05/12, 02:51 PM

The problem I run into is that this nipping occurs inside or out, even when I'm right there. Outside they have the run of about 2 acres, with me being pregnant I can't keep up with either of them very well. As it is, I'm exhausted all the time. Not a bad mom, promise! I'm just going to have to keep them separated. I can't keep track of them both and when we are outside I have things to do too so I'm seeing by this no muzzle, no shock collar (sorry that was my neighbor's suggestion and he offered to let us use his) so got that. I did buy a muzzle today but at the rate she's growing it's only going to fit for a week, she's going to the vet next week for her spay so she'll need it for that anyhow.

I realize this is going to be a big problem the bigger this pup gets, I have to nip it in the bud now somehow before the puppy gets big enough to do damage and I have a nursling on me all the time and I really can't be there all the time. The puppy is only 13 weeks old right now.

My son doesn't seem to understand anything regarding the puppy and her behavior. He doesn't even know to say "no" when she does nip.

eclipchic · #14 04/05/12, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lexa

You need to be a leader of the pack and correct her when needed. For that you need to be present then they are together. Why is it not a desirable option for you?
No matter the breed of the dog, young kids and dogs should not be left unsupervised. no matter how good the dog is. They should not be playing power games ether. Your child is too young to correct the dog properly himself and by them playing the way they are, your dog learns that it is OK to play with your kid in this manner.
Muzzling is really not a good option.
Soft muzzles that keep dog from biting are only suitable for quick restraint. They do not allow the dog to open its mouth and breath properly. If it is loose enough for the dog to open its mouth it is loose enough to nip.
Basket muzzles are too hard and if you child gets hit in the face during play there would be bloody nose.
Besides, you would need to put it on and off then they start/finish playing.
Shock collar and nipping don't really go well, ether. Using it during play might turn you dog on to actually bite your child. Since the dog doesn't know where pain of correction coming from, she might perceive it coming from your child and respond in more aggressive correction herself. Have you seen puppies play and one bites too hard, the bitten one often would growl and bite harder until the offender shows submission. How do you think it would work with a child?

I would have to be right on top of them all the time in order to effectively and constantly correct this. With 2 acres of yard and both of them faster than me it's almost impossible at my current energy level. I appreciate what you are trying to say. I don't want harm to come to either of them but I can't stand over them all day long. They are never out of my supervision but I'm not typically in arms reach all the time. When I said close supervision, I meant just that. I didn't mean without any supervision.

beccachow · #15 04/05/12, 03:35 PM

Aww, I didn't realize you were pregnant, too! Goodness! Is there any way you can enroll him in puppy obedience?

eclipchic · #16 04/05/12, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beccachow

Aww, I didn't realize you were pregnant, too! Goodness! Is there any way you can enroll him in puppy obedience?

I think I might have to. One on one she's great, she gets commands and doesn't nip....just as soon as my kiddo enters the picture it's a whole different story. We probably need professional help

beccachow · #17 04/05/12, 03:48 PM

Don't feel bad, I have a trainer coming over here in two weeks to help us.

Haven · #18 04/05/12, 04:30 PM

Puppies have bad manners around everyone, and toddlers have bad manners around puppies.

I would keep them seperated until they both grow up a bit, with only heavily supervised times together.

Edited to add:

I just read she is going in to get spayed at 3+ months. I would wait, especially in such a large breed. Early altering leads to very large, leggy dogs and I work with a lot of dogs who have orthopedic issues because they were altered at a young age. Personally I would not spay a large breed until at least 1 year of age since they continue developing up to and beyond 2 years of age. Proponents of early spays will dissagree, but I see the ill-effects all the time in my line of work.

lexa · #19 04/05/12, 04:52 PM

I am sorry, eclipchich, I am blunt and have a hard time softening it sometimes

. I do care for dogs and kids, however.

I can relate to your feeling tiered and not being able to keep up with them as I had to actually quit working when I was pregnant with my DD and am generally low energy person who gets tiered easily.

I do have experience with young puppies and kids and reality of it is that you have to be on top of both of them when they are together and teach them how to behave with each other, or they should not be together. Dogs do not distinguish between training time and "free play" and every moment they spend they learn.

Since you posted in pet forum, I assume your puppy is going to be a pet and not LGD. It would be hard for a puppy to be crated all the time but how about tethering her when you are outside with a long leash? You can give her a correction yourself when she gets rough without a need to chase anyone.

How exactly do they play?

You say your son doesn't understand anything about dog behavior yet, but does he, buy any chance, through his actions instigate her nipping or does she just runs up to him when he is calm and nips? Is h ok with her nipping and makes no sound? I only ask to figure out if there is a way to correct the situation through child's behavior.

Just what I imagine might be happening:
Lets say for example she nips when he is running away from her. Keeping puppy tethered when you are outside will physically stop her from chasing him in the first place, then if you son tries to engage her in the game by running away, you can correct him, buy putting dog away in the crate. If he wants to play, he needs to obey the rules (no running). If he trows ball as an alternative to running, dog stays out.
Also, keep in mind that stern ARGH usually gets everyones uttention if they can hear it.

eclipchic · #20 04/05/12, 05:26 PM

Lexa, he absolutely brings it on. He runs and giggles and then she nips and they play giggling for a minute and then it quickly becomes crying and mommy to the rescue. Repeat, repeat, repeat until I get so frustrated I take my son in and the dog to her space and then they cry to each other through the door.

The LGD role was the original role she was supposed to be but my husband wants her to be both family dog and part time LGD. I was afraid from the beginning this wouldn't work out like he imagined. Our old dog, who was just a mutt, filled exactly the role my husband wants her to fill. I worry his expectations are too high.

I tethered her yesterday actually, my son still wouldn't stay clear of her. Really the biggest part of the problem is my son. Take one high energy kid + one high energy puppy and you get lots of frustration

I may have to try the crate suggestion. That could work.

It's ok, I'm really emotional about this all right now. Stupid hormones!!