question on the new boy Hoyt - aggression

dbarjacres · #1 01/19/12, 12:03 PM

Okay, need advice on Hoyt. He suddenly seems to snap for no reason at the other dogs. I know he wasn't given up for aggression as his 4 brothers were given up too. The people had too many dogs.

We know Hoyt is stressed yet from his moves, so know that is part of it, but this is kinda ridiculous. Hoyt is only around Remy and Phoebe when we are home. They are in their "room" during the day and at bedtime and Hoyt is in his oversized crate. Hoyt likes to play with Remy - running around, playing with a few toys, chasing the cat. But then out of the clear blue (as in nothing to trigger, we see him do it every time), he goes into a totally aggressive posture and just goes nuts attacking Remy's face. Remy, bless his little heart, doesn't fight back, just tries to get away. We pull Hoyt away, petting and praising Remy. Grabbing Hoyt's collar or scruff doesn't make him stop, he just continues. Last night I went to putting Hoyt on his back and holding him there until he quieted down and focused on me. He was mad and fought like crazy. If he was even a 40 lb dog, I don't think I could hold him, and it'd be worse if he had an actual snout and not his smushy face.

I've never seen a dog with a hair trigger like this. Our outside dogs have consisted of German Shepherds, Akitas and Catahoulas, so I'm used to having a spat here and there.

Help! This little guy is great but I need to find the right way to work with this.

Otter · #2 01/19/12, 12:51 PM

Dog language is incredibly fast and subtle.
There is a trigger, or Remy wouldn't play with him if Remy thought Hoyt was unpredictable. Dogs do not tolerate insanity in other dogs.

Pulling Hoyt away might be necessary, I don't know, I'm not there. If there was no blood, I'd walk out of the room, do a slow count to 20, then walk back in and ask BOTH dogs to focus on me.
If I felt Hoyt needed to be away (there was blood, or they were silent; communication has lots of noise, a serious fight is deadly silent) I would never grab his scruff. Grabbing by the scruff or collar not only puts your hand in the way of teeth, but it encourages more aggression.
I don't recommend grabbing them at all. Leave them to it, or throw liquid in their faces IF (notice it's a big IF) they need separated (blood, or silence). That glass of sweet tea will work fine.

Praising and petting Remy is Wrong. Like really, seriously sending huge, damaging, mixed signals.

When Hoyt freaked out the other day, because you held him down, that sounds like a panic attack. Think about it from his point of view, he's in a totally new place, with totally new people, this one youngster is fun to play with but needs to be taught to not cross the line, he's trying to tell him something when Holy Smokes, he's attacked, pinned down, what the heck???HelpHelpGetAwayLETMEGO!!

So...
Take a look at this blog post on Dog body language. It's a beauty.
Now, the author is a serious student of dogs. Read the whole thing. Realize that to someone who is NOT a serious student of dogs, the scenario is totally different, ie; all the dogs were playing, then Clue just went crazy and jumped all over poor B, she just must not like him, we should keep them separated, Poor B, was she mean to you?
But that's not really what happened at all.
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/...body-language/
Also realize this entire interaction took about 4 seconds. Fast, and subtle.

As it doesn't sound as if there is either blood, or silence, spend 3 days walking out of the room and counting to 20. I'll bet that fixes it.
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/...parating-play/

pancho · #3 01/19/12, 01:02 PM

Give them a chance to work things out. Sounds like neither dog can do much damage to each other. Not enough teeth or jaw strength to do much more than scratch the skin. They will have to decide which one is the boss someday. Better to get it over as soon as possible.

dbarjacres · #4 01/19/12, 01:17 PM

See, I'd gladly walk out of the room, and I already mentioned that to DH, BUT Hoyt has those bulgy eyes common with small flatter faced dogs. That's my main concern. One of my Cavaliers lost an eyeball at 7 y.o. to our standard Aussie we had then (Wyatt liked to hump Max when playing, after 7 yrs, Max said ENUF! and when he snapped, he got an eye. Extremely expensive at $1000 for an after hours removal job).

We've let dogs scuffle before, but I really don't need to pay for another eye removal as we honestly couldn't afford to do that right now.

Hoyt's reaction is NEVER when they are running and playing. It's when they are just walking around the kitchen. Remy may not even move, all of the sudden Hoyt walks up to him and just goes crazy.

If it was over toys, food (Remy is nuts about food, so we're VERY careful about feeding and treats), or even playing, but it's just for no apparent reason. As soon as Remy sees Hoyt posture to him, he drops his head and just stands there.

Maybe I should order some Doggles for Hoyt and let them figure it out safely, lol.

dbarjacres · #5 01/19/12, 01:42 PM

Oh, that link was great BTW!

She talks about eye contact, and Hoyt is full on eye contact the whole time and as soon as Remy sees him, his eyes are averted, head down, tongue out.

It's just so weird. I know Hoyt is trying to fit in, and maybe he got picked on in his old pack and is trying to get top dog here. Phoebe is a complete and total submissive omega, Remy is just a wound up little boy, our Bernese outside is a big lover, never seen him even eyeball another dog, so I'd say he's an omega too (Hoyt sees "Moose" outside and looks at him like "holy poop, he's BIG and doesn't even go near him". Remy and Moose are best friends and when I got Phoebe, Moose was protective of Remy and kept her away from him when they were all outside - all the dogs interact 2x a day when Moose is out and about as well and the others outside too). There are little scuffs and scrapes on Hoyt's body, assuming from other dogs.

JasoninMN · #6 01/19/12, 02:07 PM

Sounds like Hoyt is resource guarding something in the kitchen. It doesn't even have to be something in his possession it could be something he smells inside a cupboard, a jar treats , for example or it could be something as simple as a matte on the floor he thinks of as his and doesn't want to share. It its close to a door way he could be trying to control that entry point as well. Either way is sound like there is something in the kitchen he doesn't want Remy around. Pay attention to him and what that might be.

dbarjacres · #7 01/19/12, 02:34 PM

He's done it in every room downstairs, but the kitchen is most common as I'm usually on the 'puter in there after supper. The one common thing - me.

Would a dog resource guard a person? He is ALWAYS by me. He even whines when I go in the shower and he's right outside the shower door.

If that's the issue, how on earth do I correct that?

Otter · #8 01/19/12, 02:38 PM

If you really need to know why, you could post a video.It could be as simple as Remy doesn't look away fast enough, or he doesn't drop his ears. Maybe Hoyt will only be satisfied that Remy got the message if Remy actually moves away.

Think of how infuriating it is when you ask a teenager to do something and they stare you in the eye for a heartbeat or two before saying "Fine" and doing it with a cocky attitude.
For a human, we get irritated, it's rude, but not rude enough to be called on it, mostly.
If a dog does that to another dog, the first dog just whips the snot out of him until he's sniveling on the ground.
Wouldn't you like to be a dog?

But it doesn't really matter at this point WHY he's doing it. What matters is that until they get to finish their little talk about it, it's going to get worse and worse. So you need to let them work it through themselves.

I can understand you worrying about Hoyt getting hurt, though from what you've described it seems very unlikely. So, tell you what, if you really, really can not make yourself stay out of it, then I'm going to ask you to do something that goes against human instinct (because dog instinct is what's important here)

Back up Hoyt.

You're thinking, But, but, Remy was here first and Hoyt started it and he's just being weird and ... and I understand that you feel that way, but it's the dog's feelings that matter. Remy will not feel as if you betrayed him or anything human like that if you take him down a notch.
Really.
So back up Hoyt. Next time you see Hoyt giving Remy eye contact, preferably BEFORE any other interaction takes place, chase Remy out of the room. If they get into it, scold Remy, and love up on Hoyt. Remember a couple of paragraphs ago when you thought that sometimes it must be nice to be a dog? Be one. Dogs back up the dominant dog.

My first recommendation is still leave them alone, but if you can't, try it for 2 days, and see what happens.

Otter · #9 01/19/12, 02:53 PM

Yes, dogs can resource guard a person. As long as he's not guarding you from other people, you don't correct it.
Think of the Victorian attitude "Squabbles among the servants are not my concern, so long as my house runs smoothly."

A dominance/resource guarding story - I still have 3, 4 month old male pups from when I rescued a pregnant stray. A houseful of boy puppies can be very obnoxious at times. I also have a toddler. A few days ago, the pups decided they were old and bold enough to gently "mug" my son for food. There DS would be with a spoonful of peanut butter, there'd be a flurry of puppy and he'd be without his spoon.
I was Not Pleased.
After a day or so of my being Not Pleased, my dog Deacon decided this had gone on long enough and he was going to make it his mission to back up the Top B*tch. Next time I roared at a puppy, Deacon took him down.
It would have been easy for me to feel bad for the screeching, squalling, belly-up puppy, but I waited till they were done and told Deacon he was a good dog.

And I haven't scolded a puppy since. DS and his snacks are safe, if a pup dares to look at a cracker, Deacon comes flying across the room and nails him.

Now, DS is also a valuable resource. A good bit of food comes flying down out of his high chair. Previously, this food was fair game. Whoever got to it first, owned it. Not now. Now Deacon owns it. No other dogs are allowed near it. Not near DS, not the high chair, not the food.
Me? As long as my house runs smoothly...

Maura · #10 01/19/12, 04:20 PM

I agree with everything Otter wrote. Do not do an alpha roll (holding the dog down). This can create problems and doesn't really address the issue. A spray bottle is best at breaking up a fight, if it will work, don't grab the collar, walk away. Yes, a dog can resource guard a human. This is called owner possession and involves not allowing anyone near the favorite person, not a child, not a parent, not a spouse, and certainly not another dog. So, if these fights happen when you are close, it may be you he is guarding. I have had two foster dogs with this problem. The sure fire way to find out is to watch how close you can get to another dog with Hoyt in the same area (not the kitchen so that food can be ruled out, not another high value area). If he attacks when you are in the same room, go to another room and see if he stops. This would not be associated with food or toys, just you. If you can narrow the attacks down to resource guarding you, come back with another post.

You haven't had Hoyt very long. Normally, it takes two weeks, maybe longer, for a new dog to start showing his true colors. I feel you've really given Hoyt too much freedom for a new dog, but there you are. Sometimes a Boston terrier will be extremely dog aggressive, like the pit bull is coming out. With this problem, there will not be social cues or a "cause", the dog simply attacks the other dog. There will be blood and there will no longer be playing scenarios. Other dogs are to be attacked. This will not happen the first day but will take time before the Boston/pug attacks and it will probably be a surprise. If Hoyt is dog aggressive you'll not be able to have him around other dogs and either manage the situation real well or rehome him.

(sigh) if they could just all get along.

dbarjacres · #11 01/19/12, 06:03 PM

Ack, what a crappy night. Been home for 40 mintues to have 2 fights, one when they came in the house from pottying. Remy fought back and I pulled them apart (I know I know, but I can NOT afford an after hours eye removal, stitches I don't care, but the emergency vet for more than stitches is over 1.5 hrs away too). I almost got bit. 10 mintues later, he jumped at Phoebe, but she just lays down so nothing happened. Try to wash my hands, find out the dang pipes are frozen because the basement door came open and it's been below 0 here all day. Getting better every minute.....

Then Hoyt just started circling Remy and growling and jumping at him. Remy stepped up to me and sat against my legs. I figured, screw it, and moved. Hoyt pounced, Remy fought. I let them. I did not touch either. I screamed at the top of my lungs, Remy hesitated, Hoyt didn't notice. Remy outweighs Hoyt by at least 12 lbs. Hoyt took him down, chased him across the house, then finally quit when Remy ran about 30 feet from original spot. Remy was about peeing himself so I let them all out. All went out and Hoyt came in happy. Remy won't even look at him.

Does this sound like rage yet or just a dog used to living in who knows what kind of situation of 15 dogs in a trailer home?

pamda · #12 01/19/12, 06:59 PM

Not rage, he's just wanting to keep you for himself. See it everytime I go to my mom and dads. He got himself a pug. Who had been a breeder, the given away then given away again. Problem, she only really wants my mother. And she keeps all the other dogs away and would do it with people if she was allowed. I have no love for this breed of dog and very little patience with the behavior. And she knows it, and leaves me alone, except to come for hugs and kisses..lol.

GrannyCarol · #13 01/19/12, 07:08 PM

A dog with rage will NOT circle and threaten, it will wake up from a dead sleep and just attack without any warning. There won't be growling and jumping. Nor will it have bite inhibition. A dog with rage syndrome will have the rage almost like a seizure, then afterward will be disoriented and not seem to know what happened.

Did Hoyt draw blood or do any real damage? If not, then he is very unlikely to do so. The more a dog bites or fights without drawing blood or harming the other dog, the more it means he's learned bite inhibition and won't harm another dog. Maybe Hoyt just doesn't like to be looked at? I'd say Hoyt came from a situation of 15 dogs in a trailer home.

Also I'd say that Hoyt doesn't yet respect you - he could use to trained to be under your authority. I'd put him on a "no free lunch" regimen. I don't have time to explain it right now, probably someone else will though.

He does need to be under control and it doesn't have to be alpha rolls, gentle training would be better. Also, let him drag a cord about 18" long, so you have something to grab if you need to without getting bit. You really don't want to stick your hand in the middle of that. Even if no one means to bite you, you will probably get nailed.

Otter · #14 01/19/12, 07:32 PM

No, this is actually good. Really. Except for the part where you almost got bit. Hands off! Stitches for you are worse then stitches for them.

Let's recap, ok

Then Hoyt just started circling Remy and growling and jumping at him.
We didn't see why, there may not have been a reason since they'd been interrupted once, just an opportunity. But this is normal dog protocol, not insane behavior.
Remy stepped up to me and sat against my legs.
You've interfered and backed him up before, he's waiting for you to do it again. Why fight when your big brother will do it for you?
I figured, screw it, and moved. Good for you.
Hoyt pounced, Remy fought. I let them. I did not touch either.
This is fine, they both realized you weren't going to instantly step in.
I screamed at the top of my lungs, Remy hesitated, Hoyt didn't notice.
This was bad. Trust me, they both noticed and felt heightened anxiety, Remy thought you were going to jump in, Hoyt took his heightened anxiety out on Remy. Next time, don't throw gas on the fire.
Remy outweighs Hoyt by at least 12 lbs. Hoyt took him down, chased him across the house, then finally quit when Remy ran about 30 feet from original spot.
Right, if this was about killing each other, Hoyt would be dead. It's about dominance. Hoyt was satisfied when Remy backed down totally. It wasn't enough for him to be knocked over, he had to submit and then remove himself from the situation. When Remy finally did, Hoyt was satisfied. Insane dogs do not follow canine protocol, this interaction did. Hoyt is not insane
Remy was about peeing himself so I let them all out.
I'll bet! He was very shaken up, Hoyt got to spank him good and you were acting all weird, peeing is extreme submission.
All went out and Hoyt came in happy. Remy won't even look at him.
Durn tootin he wont! Eye contact is very, very meaningful in dogs. When a dog won't look at another dog he's saying "Compared to you, I am an invisible peon. I am so little challenge that you don't even need to notice me" Like in ancient Japan, this is considered very polite. And Hoyt is strutting through the house saying "See me? I AM the man!"
And Remy is being very sensitive to Hoyt's body language.

Animals have a deep and rich emotional life. What they don't necessarily have is the same emotions that YOU would have in a certain situation. Remy isn't sulking, he is trying not to offend.

I'm sorry you had such a stressful day. <<<hug>>>

dbarjacres · #15 01/19/12, 08:10 PM

Okay, sorry about the rage thing. I looked it up in dogs and see its a kinda debated thing and it's not really what I mean. I guess I was using a human aspect of it of "feeling a rage inside yourself".

I'm not worried at all about Hoyt hurting Remy. Remy has a thick coat and with Hoyt's flatter face, he doesn't bite overly hard. My concern is if (and now when when) Remy would fight back, thus hitting one of Hoyt's eyes or putting holes in him. When Remy is mature and filled in, he'll weigh almost twice that of Hoyt. The fear of having a second "One Eye Willy" (Wyatt's nickname the last 4 years) is what's scary.

I know it will take time, but just have flash backs of poor Wyatt (One Eye Willy) with his eye hanging out and squeeling at the top of his lungs.

Thanks so much for all your tips!

Otter · #16 01/19/12, 09:07 PM

Honestly, I'd worry about "when Remy fights back" if they're still at it next week. I think if you just let them, they'll sort it out and be fine. I don't think at all that Hoyt will keep at it for years and Remy will one day think "This reign of terror must end!!!"

I actually think that isn't what happened with Wyatt. Mounting, to a dog, is not that huge a deal. If Max didn't rip his eyelid and face open - then it was an accident. I knew of a pug who knocked his eye out running into a door (running with his head turned). So please don't blame yourself for not "stopping aggression" if it was just a terrible accident. I know that had to be awful to go through and I'm sure it left a big scar on your heart.

akane · #17 01/19/12, 09:15 PM

Quote:

We pull Hoyt away, petting and praising Remy

First mistake there. Hoyt is obviously dominant and therefore should take over dominance of the pack below you. It is good to tell the existing dogs they are not forgotten or replaced but by reinforcing the attention of the other dog you just place Remy above Hoyt again and he has to yet again do something to try to prove he's taking over. Don't pet either of them. Don't give them attention when they aren't doing something good. If the fight needs halted then halt it, demand obedience of both dogs (a sit or a down stay for as long as is reasonable from the new one) and leave them. No one gets praise. No one gets coddled and put on a pedestal unless you want to do it 24/7. Whoever is dominant becomes dominant. They just do so below you and therefore you can call a halt to all fights that become too violent and demand silence but that takes reinforcing sits, stays, food control, toy control, etc.. over the new dog. I've had no trouble with our own dogs because we let them set the pack order as they settled in and reinforced we were boss in all ways so everyone always had a place and it was settled within the first fight since no one got in the way of that fight ending. It is only the odd occasion circumstances combine to make things get out of hand and I tell everyone they've gone too far. Punishment is given all around (not just who appeared to start things) while high value items are taken away for awhile.

Now with foster dogs I've had issues integrating in to the existing pack with their generally poor backgrounds. We had a terrier x border collie who was submissive but the terrier tendency to snap and no other dog experience. Our shiba puppy decided this young dog made a great toy that she could dominate since she couldn't dominate our other dogs. We spent days trying to make the scared half to death little dog happy and drag the shiba off. After weeks it reached the point they had to be leashed or in separate rooms. One day I said to hell with it and released the shiba on the terrier. She nipped the terrier's back legs, chased her about, the screaming was horrid, and then all of a sudden that little terrier flipped around, held it's ground, and snapped at the shiba's shoulder. That was the end of it all. Shiba is boss but terrier cross is not chew toy. Same with cats. They avoid the shiba as ruler over them but claws will come out if they are thought of as toys. There were no more real arguments after that just some posturing when they got food. That is immediately halted because I am boss and I control the food so everyone eats what they are given and not a morsel more if they don't want to be banished from the den to sleep on the hallway floor with no food, toys, or anything because I will claim it all as mine, I will take the dog bed to my bed and claim it as mine if necessary, until they get it through their heads. The dog bed is theirs until they cross me and then privileges and space are lost.

We also had a puppy mill 8month old shiba (if you can call something bred like that an actual shiba). He thought in his clueless cage bound life that he could take anything he wanted from anyone. I tried to teach him otherwise but he was mentally deficient in pack structure and that someone else could tell him what to do. One day he decided to take a bone from my akita. I feed mine raw meals all next to each other without incident. My akita like the others has been taught exactly how much force she is allowed to exert (no serious injuries unless in defense) and otherwise she has free reign to discipline all dogs below her. So she did and I still laugh about how. She pounced on that little pup so he rolled right over with one front paw behind his front legs and one in front of his back legs with him perfectly upside down. She then nipped his belly not quite hard enough to break skin until he went from trying to bite her (his neck didn't reach the length of her legs) to screaming in fear. I told her to release him at that point. After he did some sulking I had no trouble teaching him obedience and food manners from that moment on.

The dogs will teach the dogs so long as you've taught them right. You are the top of the pack and your actions set the precedence for how each dog down the line handles making it's place in the pack. If yours are trained well and you apply the same rules to the new dog they will work it out without injury. Just a lot of noise.

dbarjacres · #18 01/19/12, 09:33 PM

Going back to Wyatt and Max, yes, Otter, we believe it was a full accident on Max's part. We think he turned his head, mouth open to "warn" Wyatt and just caught his eye with his canine, popped it right on out. DH was actually playing with Max at the time when Wyatt ran up behind him. It was a rather innocent scuffle and still had major reprocussions.

we had some peaceful playing tonite. Remy and Hoyt played nicely, then Remy and Phoebe played and Hoyt sat on his butt 2 feet away watching them. Remy and Hoyt laid in front of the pellet stove for awhile too. Fingers crossed the letting them scuffle worked....

Thanks so much everybody!

pancho · #19 01/20/12, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbarjacres

Ack, what a crappy night. Been home for 40 mintues to have 2 fights, one when they came in the house from pottying. Remy fought back and I pulled them apart (I know I know, but I can NOT afford an after hours eye removal, stitches I don't care, but the emergency vet for more than stitches is over 1.5 hrs away too). I almost got bit. 10 mintues later, he jumped at Phoebe, but she just lays down so nothing happened. Try to wash my hands, find out the dang pipes are frozen because the basement door came open and it's been below 0 here all day. Getting better every minute.....

Then Hoyt just started circling Remy and growling and jumping at him. Remy stepped up to me and sat against my legs. I figured, screw it, and moved. Hoyt pounced, Remy fought. I let them. I did not touch either. I screamed at the top of my lungs, Remy hesitated, Hoyt didn't notice. Remy outweighs Hoyt by at least 12 lbs. Hoyt took him down, chased him across the house, then finally quit when Remy ran about 30 feet from original spot. Remy was about peeing himself so I let them all out. All went out and Hoyt came in happy. Remy won't even look at him.

Does this sound like rage yet or just a dog used to living in who knows what kind of situation of 15 dogs in a trailer home?

Hoyt is giving plenty of notice to Remy. That is what all of the threatening and warning postures, stance, and sounds are. Remy has not yet decided he need to submit.
Maybe he will now decide who is top dog and the problems will stop.
Any noises a dog makes before it attacks is a threat or warning. Different postures around another dog is a threat or warning. The set of the ears and tail can be a threat or warning.
Threats and warnings are supposed to be taken seriously by another dog to prevent a dog fight. That is the reason for them in the first place.
If a dog is really serious about hurting another dog there will be no threats or warnings. There will not be any noise, posturing or and warning of any kind. There will only be an attack.
Hoyt is doing his best to give plenty of warnings. It is up to you and the other dog to decide if you want to take these warnings or not.

SageLady · #20 01/20/12, 10:23 PM

We had this same problem when our Corgi joined our household with our Pug. They have sorted it out over time, but like you I was very afraid of our Pug losing an eye. My anxiety prolonged it, but they are now fine, and we live in a very peaceful home, so there is definitely hope for your dogs. I think they will be fine. Mine will still fight over food though, so I feed them in seperate rooms and all is well....