breeding frequency question

[jordan]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread about the frequency of breeding but...
I am in the proccess of starting a US breed club for Spanish Mastiffs and am working on a COE (Code of Ethics). My goal is to have guidelines concerning the breed, not to write law. With less than 85 total, our breed is much too rare and few and far between in the US at this point to expect people to adhere to hard and fast rules even though I think they should.

I am getting a mixed response when it comes to what I put together concerning breeding responsibly.
This is what I currently have about frequency of breeding;
"A breeder will not engage in over-breeding of bitches nor breed any bitch before she is 18 months old and has had at least two cycles. A bitch should not be bred more than once in any twelve (12) month period unless she does not whelp a litter, the litter is stillborn, consists of two or less pups, or as a part of a veterinarians recommendation for treatment of pyometria."

One person responded that they would like to see breedings later and further apart (though she doesn't breed herself) and another offered the same info by a Dr Hutchinson that Willowynd mentioned in the other thread, where he recommends breeding as young as 16 months and 3-4 back to back breedings (on each cycle) then spay. I think that there are just too many variables to recommend this practice but would appreciate some feedback from other breeders.
I look at my own dog who had a healthy litter of 11 in Feb and cycled back in June. No way would I have ever considered breeding her back at that time. We have just bred her again last week, but her litters will be just a few weeks shy of a year between the two.

I've looked at COE's from other breed clubs (mostly rare or working breeds though) and they are just all over the place with their rules.
When writing this I have to keep in mind the rarity of the breed as well as the health and well being. With so few good breeding dogs here it is not reasonable to suggest 3 lifetime breedings out of an exceptional and healthy female, but IMO 6 would be rediculous and detrimental to the bitch.

Keeping all this in mind, I would love to hear some suggestions.
Thanks,
Lois

[Oregon Julie]

The first thing that jumps out at me from your purposed COE is breeding bitches prior to 2 years of age. Besides the fact that your breed is a large breed and slower to mature, this does not allow for OFA hips which cannot be done until they are a full 2 years old.

Also making rules about how many heat cycles a bitch can or must have prior to being bred or between one litter and the next only works if your bitch read the text books that says they come in ever 6 months. A friend of mine with Anatolians has a bitch who comes in about every 9-11 months. Telling her that she cannot breed back to back litters means two years between litters, which is just plain silly in a breed with a fairly short reproductive life like an ASD. Now because of the COE with the ASD club by breeding a back to back litter she was breaking their rules. Anatolian's do not have as small a gene pool as your breed, but they are not huge by any means so this is a bad rule IMO.

I tend to lean in the same direction with putting a limit on the number of litters a bitch can have, although you might put something in there that states they cannot be bred past a certain age. My Anatolian bitch had a litter of 5 pups with one born dead. So she raised 4 pups with no problem and could have done it over and over again most likely with no ill effects. I think that you are more likely to get people willing to sign and abide by a COE if you put reasonable limitations on them.

On a slightly different note, I would love to see photos of your dogs. They are a neat breed.

[Maura]

I think your COE should state that studs and bitches should not be bred prior to having hip x-rays, which puts them at age two before being bred. However, this breed may not be physically mature until age 3, you need to know this. Also, there should be a requirement for dna tests, if this is applicable to the breed.

With Churro sheep and some horses, an animal is not registered until it passes an exam for correct conformation and soundness. If you did this, your registration would mean something. If you had a stipulation for "breedable", those registered as breedable would have had to pass an exam for correct conformation and personality, including acceptable hip x-rays and dna tests where applicable. This would keep your breed from becoming ruined by the show ring or ignorant/uncaring breeders. It would mean that puppy mills will not be using your registration.

In Germany, GSDs have to pass some sort of training and conformation exam before they are allowed to be registered. You could look into their standards.

[tailwagging]

Too strict and you will lose valuable gene pool.
Why not talk to a k9 productive specialist.

[jordan]

Thanks, that info helps!
So it might be better phrased to say "will not be bred before 18 months or after 7 years".
Putting an age minimum is a decision best made by the breeder and their vet. Mine was first bred at almost 19 months and my vet felt that there would be no issues with her and there weren't. She had an incredibly easy time delivering and was an amazing and attentive mother.
I'm not comfortable with "requiring" owners to OFA before breeding. It's the smart thing to do, but it's really up to the breeder whether or not to do it. X-rays done at 18 months have a 90% accuracy as oppsed to 95% at 24 months. All the info about health testing will be put on the site so that breeders and buyers can make educated decisions.

Since this club is in it's very beginning stages, I feel we do have to have reasonable limitations on the members and not dictate too much what can or can't be done.
Thanks again for your input, I appreciate it!
Lois
BTW, there are tons of pics on my website of all the dogs. They really are an amazing and addictive breed!
www.fallcreekfarm.net

[jordan]

Originally Posted by Maura

I think your COE should state that studs and bitches should not be bred prior to having hip x-rays, which puts them at age two before being bred. However, this breed may not be physically mature until age 3, you need to know this. Also, there should be a requirement for dna tests, if this is applicable to the breed.

With Churro sheep and some horses, an animal is not registered until it passes an exam for correct conformation and soundness. If you did this, your registration would mean something. If you had a stipulation for "breedable", those registered as breedable would have had to pass an exam for correct conformation and personality, including acceptable hip x-rays and dna tests where applicable. This would keep your breed from becoming ruined by the show ring or ignorant/uncaring breeders. It would mean that puppy mills will not be using your registration.

In Germany, GSDs have to pass some sort of training and conformation exam before they are allowed to be registered. You could look into their standards.

As Tailwagging said, To strict and we will lose what very little gene pool we have here.
This breed is very slow to fully mature. My male did not reach his full size until 4 years old and my other female was still filling out at 3 1/2. Requiring people to wait for that time period will certainly keep them from joining the club.

As for requiring OFA before breeding, that is great as far as it goes but you can't fix stupid people who will hide behind an OFA certificate. We already had a litter bred here in the US that was rediculously inbred With both parents having the exact same animals in their pedigree going back four generations. The moronic breeder justified doing it by saying that it was OK because the parents hips had been OFA'd and both rated "good" (not excellent mind you, but good). Needless to say, that is one hard and fast rule in the COE. No incestuous breeding.
Temperament testing and structure evaluations for puppies is also included in the COE, but to date, I'm the only person in the US that has had it done.

The Spanish Mastiff is not an AKC breed and can only be shown in Rare Breed shows in the US. We follow the FCI standards. Spain is working on hip evaluation requirements for showing but not breeding.
I know of a simply gorgeous dog in Europe who is the epitome of the SM and his hips rated D. He has produced well over 100 pups and with about 75% of those having been tested (the others not), not a one has had bad hips and most have rated excellent. He has produced more champions than almost any other SM I know of. Would you remove him from the gene pool? Not me.
With that in mind, I am very tossed up when it comes to OFA. It can be a great tool, but it can be deceptive too if you don't know how to use the information or take it for what it's worth when using it.
JMHO
Thank you!
Lois

[Willowynd]

I think since this is a large breed that you should insist no breeding take place until health testing is finished (for instance HD and whatever else runs in your breed). Personally with as large a dog as a spanish mastiff...I would think any bitch younger than 3 yrs old is too young. As far as spacing breedings, that is really a personal choice and depends on the health and vigor of the bitch. So maybe saying that no bitch shall be bred more than once a year without veterinary recommendation?

[sandman]

just a question for u jordan. what is wrong with inbreeding if done properly(culling the bad ones). just take the apbt for example u would not believe the inbreeding and whatnot but u also see a lot of good dogs when it is done right. good way to see what is really there. plus tightly bred animals tend to reproduce a more consistent animal.

and i agree on the age thing with willowynd. 18 month is a little early in my book especially being a very large breed. there not even mentally mature probably by 18months.

also requiring health/temp tests,hip elbow and whatever else that runs in your breed. would give u the best possible start and then u wouldnt have to worry about people milling the crap out of your breed and turning it into garbage. cuz they arent gonna wanna spend the extra cash to do those things. if someone doesnt want to spend the extra what 100bucks to get a few test done i doubt there in it for the right reasons to begin with. just my opinion. good luck in whatever u choose to do. and those are some pretty cool looking dogs.

[sandman]

just a question for u jordan. what is wrong with inbreeding if done properly(culling the bad ones). just take the apbt for example u would not believe the inbreeding and whatnot but u also see a lot of good dogs when it is done right. good way to see what is really there. plus tightly bred animals tend to reproduce a more consistent animal.

and i agree on the age thing with willowynd. 18 month is a little early in my book especially being a very large breed. there not even mentally mature probably by 18months.

also requiring health/temp tests,hip elbow and whatever else that runs in your breed. would give u the best possible start and then u wouldnt have to worry about people milling the crap out of your breed and turning it into garbage. cuz they arent gonna wanna spend the extra cash to do those things. if someone doesnt want to spend the extra what 100bucks to get a few test done i doubt there in it for the right reasons to begin with. just my opinion. good luck in whatever u choose to do. and those are some pretty cool looking dogs.

[tailwagging]

Do you know the mode of inheritance for HD (or any of the other health concerns) in this breed?
Fair is a passing grade. A dog with even mild HD can produce fair, good and excellence hips in other breeds, I am told. No dog is prefect and no blood line is perfect. The is a fine line between doing right for a breed and throwing the baby out with the bath water. especially in a rare breed.

[Immaculate Sublimity]

well I'll admit I'm twelve years out of the breeding/showing ring now. my last english Mastiff left our world about 6 years ago... but heres some thing I KNOW went on that -that- circuit...


Dogs under 2 can be prelim'd... they can also be pennhip'd both giving a very good idea to the future tests.

But more importantly OFA isnt the be all and end all of Hip testing... I know there were several Mastiff breeders that would take their dogs in at 2 to have them OFA'd, who merely dropped 10 or 15 lbs off the dogs weight before the xray... it made the difference between a 'poor' ofa and an acceptable one. Or so they said. once I learned that, I lost faith in the 'system'

As far as your COE...you're dealing with a rare breed.. I dont see that the 18mo- 6 yr breeding range is a bad one... to increase the breed numbers. Maybe add something that those codes are accepted until the breed reaches a certain number and is no longer considered rare at which point some changes to the COE can be made in regards to breeding age. maybe by that time you can see how things are developing and tweak the COE for the best interest of the breed.

[Willow101]

Before I go crazy typing, the first thing to remember is 'you can't fix stupid'. No matter what you decide to include in your COE there will be people who abuse it or find a way to get around it. Write a COE that is ethical, honest and reasonable and then, when you find people who manipulate it...know who they are and avoid them.

Since this is a giant breed look at some of the other COEs for the AKC giant breeds. No sense reinventing the wheel if it is already there...at least parts of it.

As for breeding time or frequency I suspect you will have as many opinions about this as there are members of the list. I would say that the important thing would be that the dogs are tested for the diseases and conditions found in the breed that can be passed on, before breeding. That would mean that they would have to be older than two years...for OFA. Although someone could use PennHip, which can be done very early on, and I think is a much better way to determine the possibility of passing problem hips on.

You might want to put an age limit on breeding since this is a giant breed and probably shorter lived than say a Toy Poodle. Breeding a Toy Poodle at 9 years old may not be a huge problem (not recommending this) but breeding a giant breed at 9 years old would be like your ninety year old great grandmother having a child.

My concern for this breed is that it isn't for everyone and the pups cost a lot of money. Breeders should be careful who they sell to....and understand that the first person with a healthy check book amount may not be the best person for the dog. There should be at least minimum screening requirements for the breed. You are getting in at the ground floor and this will be your only chance to make sure every effort is made to make sure the breed doesn't fall in the hands of high class puppy mills. Breeders interested in preserving and protecting a breed screen buyers for suitability.

Good breeders sell pups with a contract that protects all parties....breeder, buyer and the dog. Terms are spelled out clearly. Breeders take back a dog that isn't working out or not wanted any more, so the dog...and ultimately the breed...is protected. Health guarantees are a good thing as long as the breeder has a reasonable health guarantee. Breeders who demand a dog is returned before replacing a dog with health problems clearly isn't looking out for the dog. Many owners will keep the original dog...because they love it. If the breeder demands the dog back and the owners love the dog and won't return it then the breeder gets an easy out. These dogs should be spayed/neutered and then a replacement should be offered. You may want to develop a boiler plate contract that does promote ethical breeding.

Much has been said about the limited gene pool. While I understand the difficulties this presents, the opposite of that is the breed becoming so popular and prolific that anyone can buy them. Keep tight standards now...limited gene pool or not....and have a much healthier breed down the road.

As for putting something in there about inbreeding...or linebreeding and outcrossing.....I wouldn't do that. We all know the perils of inbreeding however inbreeding can also be the fastest way to set breed type and eliminate defective genes. The key is knowing what you are doing and when to outcross.

Hope you can use some of the above. The Spanish Mastiff looks like a wonderful breed.

Willow101

[jordan]

Originally Posted by sandman

just a question for u jordan. what is wrong with inbreeding if done properly(culling the bad ones). just take the apbt for example u would not believe the inbreeding and whatnot but u also see a lot of good dogs when it is done right. good way to see what is really there. plus tightly bred animals tend to reproduce a more consistent animal.

and i agree on the age thing with willowynd. 18 month is a little early in my book especially being a very large breed. there not even mentally mature probably by 18months.

also requiring health/temp tests,hip elbow and whatever else that runs in your breed. would give u the best possible start and then u wouldnt have to worry about people milling the crap out of your breed and turning it into garbage. cuz they arent gonna wanna spend the extra cash to do those things. if someone doesnt want to spend the extra what 100bucks to get a few test done i doubt there in it for the right reasons to begin with. just my opinion. good luck in whatever u choose to do. and those are some pretty cool looking dogs.

I don't have a problem with line breeding, but I do with incestuous breedings. Especially when we are attempting to get a breeding program off the ground here in the US. With only 85 dogs here (13 of them mine), genetic diversity is of utmost importance in the early stages... and because we are trying to get the breeding program going is the reason I've kept the minimum breeding age a little lower but still within range so testing can be done.

In the case mentioned, the bitch in particular was a very poor example of the breed and shouldn't have been bred at all. Considering the parents of the litter share the same bloodlines you would have expected to see a consistancy in looks that just doesn't exist in the parents of these pups. I was not exagerating when I said that they have the exact same bloodlines throughout both pedigrees. Not a single out-cross anywhere.
Thanks!
Lois

[jordan]

Originally Posted by Immaculate Sublimity

As far as your COE...you're dealing with a rare breed.. I dont see that the 18mo- 6 yr breeding range is a bad one... to increase the breed numbers. Maybe add something that those codes are accepted until the breed reaches a certain number and is no longer considered rare at which point some changes to the COE can be made in regards to breeding age. maybe by that time you can see how things are developing and tweak the COE for the best interest of the breed.

Thanks, those were my thoughts as well...
Lois

[sandman]

dang only 85 dogs, didnt know the gene pool was that small. good luck with the new adventure lol

[jordan]

Originally Posted by sandman

dang only 85 dogs, didnt know the gene pool was that small. good luck with the new adventure lol

I have not been able to confirm yet that all of those 85 are still living, but those numbers are very close. A few of us have kept pretty close tabs on dogs imported as well as the very few litters born here.
It has been a wonderful adventure so far and I'm hoping that once I get the Club website up and running we'll be able to help others interested in these very unique dogs!
Lois

[Maura]

I just thought it would be nice, since this is at the beginning, to produce a dog that is "excellent" instead of second rate, just to get the numbers up.

[jordan]

Originally Posted by Maura

I just thought it would be nice, since this is at the beginning, to produce a dog that is "excellent" instead of second rate, just to get the numbers up.

I don't believe I said at any point that we should lower our expectations or goals concerning the breed, quite the opposite, just the minimum breeding age until we get our numbers up. I want to see the goals raised much higher than what I've seen so far here and that's one of the reasons I'm starting a club and writing a COE is so that we can educate and guide both breeders and prospective owners on what to look for, ask about and work towards with this breed. If people don't join and if I don't start the club, we have no way to advise or give input.

There will be pages on the finished site concerning health issues and what people should ask of breeders (info will also be provided to breeders on screening buyers). There will be pages on the FCI standard and temperament. The plan is to make this a comprehensive site. Knowledge is power and the more information a prospective buyer has, the better able they are to "drive the market". Hopefully, breeders will have to comply by breeding responsibly to the standard, for health and temperament or not be able to sell their puppies...

I can't stop the people who have dogs that IMO are not breedable from breeding because they aren't going to join the club anyway, but we can help to educate potential owners and breeders who want to do right by the breed.
As Willow 101 said in an earlier post "No matter what you decide to include in your COE there will be people who abuse it or find a way to get around it. Write a COE that is ethical, honest and reasonable and then, when you find people who manipulate it...know who they are and avoid them."
Lois

[Maura]

[QUOTE=jordan;4141185]I don't believe I said at any point that we should lower our expectations or goals concerning the breed, quite the opposite,
There will be pages on the finished site concerning health issues and what .

I can't stop the people who have dogs that IMO are not breedable from breeding because they aren't going to join the club anyway, but we can help to educate potential owners and breeders who want to do right by the breed.

****
You are lowering your expectations if you lower the bar. You keep wanting to have the minimum age for breeding to be 18 months, even though people have posted that 18 months is too young for a dog this size. If your goal is to produce dogs that are healthy with proper conformation and personality, then you have to write to address that goal. If your goal is to produce a lot of puppies quickly, then you don't need a code of ethics. Expecting people to read your website and be knowledgeable consumers is expecting too much. If people did any research at all there would be no puppy mills. If you want your registration to mean anything other than being a paper factory, you have to make it mean something by being demanding of quality. People who aren't interested in real quality aren't going to worry which breed registry the puppy is from, just like those who aren't good breeders aren't going to register with you anyway.

I know I sound picky, but 90% of the Boston terriers in rescue are from puppy mills and back yard breeders. I see too many elbows sticking out, luxating patellas, owner possession, etc. to think that it's counterproductive to be demanding that only healthy animals reproduce. To think that you are at the core of maintaining a breed and can encourage proper breeding is very exciting.

[jordan]

[QUOTE=Maura;4141202]

Originally Posted by jordan

I don't believe I said at any point that we should lower our expectations or goals concerning the breed, quite the opposite,
There will be pages on the finished site concerning health issues and what .

I can't stop the people who have dogs that IMO are not breedable from breeding because they aren't going to join the club anyway, but we can help to educate potential owners and breeders who want to do right by the breed.

****
You are lowering your expectations if you lower the bar. You keep wanting to have the minimum age for breeding to be 18 months, even though people have posted that 18 months is too young for a dog this size. If your goal is to produce dogs that are healthy with proper conformation and personality, then you have to write to address that goal. If your goal is to produce a lot of puppies quickly, then you don't need a code of ethics. Expecting people to read your website and be knowledgeable consumers is expecting too much. If people did any research at all there would be no puppy mills. If you want your registration to mean anything other than being a paper factory, you have to make it mean something by being demanding of quality. People who aren't interested in real quality aren't going to worry which breed registry the puppy is from, just like those who aren't good breeders aren't going to register with you anyway.

I know I sound picky, but 90% of the Boston terriers in rescue are from puppy mills and back yard breeders. I see too many elbows sticking out, luxating patellas, owner possession, etc. to think that it's counterproductive to be demanding that only healthy animals reproduce. To think that you are at the core of maintaining a breed and can encourage proper breeding is very exciting.

Maura, I'm not sure where you are getting your assumptions, but I only posted a very small part of the COE concerning the breeding age, not the whole thing. I can assure you that health, temperament and structure are absolutely included in it, as are many other possible safeguards to protect our breed. The COE is a collaborative effort by SM owners here in the US and I was hoping for more feedback from other breeders too so an educated decision can be applied to the COE (owners were all across the board in what they wanted/expected too).
I also know what my vet (a breeder himself of 30+ years who does specialize in reproduction here in WI) told me in regards to my bitch before I bred her.

Again, at no point did I say our goal was to produce alot of puppies quickly, but to keep the limited gene pool open. Do you honestly think that since it has taken over 10 years to get to 85 dogs and that after having had this breed myself for almost 7 years (and having bred ONE litter) that our goal for this breed is to populate the USA quickly??? No, the goal is to get ahead of this and do our best to keep health, quality and well being the main focus.

I sincerely appreciate your input and can imagine how frustrating it must be for you having a breed you obviously adore being carelessly overbred. Believe it or not, we've already had one SM put in a shelter by his breeder because she couldn't home him! Luckily, we found out about him immediately and he was adopted within 2 days. He has a wonderful home now and is spoiled rotten!
Lois