unwanted pregnancy

[susanne]

how can i deal with unwanted pregnency in a young female?
i have a one year old Pyr that was bred accidentally bred by my GSD.
i had them separated but male managed to dig through the fence.
anybody used lutalyse on a dog before? if so, what would be the time frame to do so?

[Minelson]

How far along is she? How about getting her spayed and ending the pregnancy.

[susanne]

Originally Posted by Minelson

How far along is she? How about getting her spayed and ending the pregnancy.

she was bred today. we are planning to have her bred to a pyr male but not to my GSD.

[jen74145]

Lutalyse= prostaglandin; it's what tthe farm vets here use. I have had no personal experience, but people here wind up in your boat with working dogs often enough I know about it, lol. Nobody wants their cattledog to have half Pyr pups or whatnot.

I would be nervous of losing the dog and certainly would consult a vet for this one. Last thing you want is to lose your guardian animal.

Oh, and figure out how to keep it from happening again... I know accidents certainly happen, but I'd hate this to happen again and you not catch it and wind up with mixed breeds. Males are so determined, I would probably have his digging little behind snipped.

[susanne]

thank you jen. yes, i definitely know how to prevent it the next time.
i would never have thought he would do this. he is already six years old and is very mellow, low drive. never humped on anything.
he looked so happy today LOL.

[Oregon Julie]

There is an increase risk of a potentially fatal uterine infection with the use of the mismate shot. The problem is that besides the fact that dogs who get uterine infections die, sometimes even if you catch it and treat it (spay is almost always the treatment) you can have a hard time catching it. I had an older Anatolian bitch, not spayed but also not bred, who was acting very, very slightly "off". Most people would not have even noticed, but thankfully I did. I toook her into the vet clinic and they scratched there heads for a short while, then my vet said "is she spayed?". I said no, they did an ultrasound and her uterus was very large.

I sat in on the emergency spay surgery and it is a very tricky thing removing a infected uterus as they can basically explode at the point that they touch them to remove them from the body. What they took out, thankfully in one piece, was as big around as my upper arm and as long as both my upper and lower arm. The vet took photos to show to anyone who thought it might be nice to keep their bitches intact, just in case they wanted a litter in the future. My girl had an "open" infection, so not a lot of pressure built up. Had it been closed she may well have died before we figured out that she even had a problem. For the record this was not a dog out on hundreds of acres with little contact with us. She was in a small field next to our house and we interacted with her multiple times each day.

So having said that, I would spay her. A litter of GSD x Great Pyr pups might be cute, but they are at cross purposes considering that one protects and the other herds and herding is just a controled version of hunting after all.

[susanne]

Originally Posted by Oregon Julie

There is an increase risk of a potentially fatal uterine infection with the use of the mismate shot. The problem is that besides the fact that dogs who get uterine infections die, sometimes even if you catch it and treat it (spay is almost always the treatment) you can have a hard time catching it. I had an older Anatolian bitch, not spayed but also not bred, who was acting very, very slightly "off". Most people would not have even noticed, but thankfully I did. I toook her into the vet clinic and they scratched there heads for a short while, then my vet said "is she spayed?". I said no, they did an ultrasound and her uterus was very large.

I sat in on the emergency spay surgery and it is a very tricky thing removing a infected uterus as they can basically explode at the point that they touch them to remove them from the body. What they took out, thankfully in one piece, was as big around as my upper arm and as long as both my upper and lower arm. The vet took photos to show to anyone who thought it might be nice to keep their bitches intact, just in case they wanted a litter in the future. My girl had an "open" infection, so not a lot of pressure built up. Had it been closed she may well have died before we figured out that she even had a problem. For the record this was not a dog out on hundreds of acres with little contact with us. She was in a small field next to our house and we interacted with her multiple times each day.

So having said that, I would spay her. A litter of GSD x Great Pyr pups might be cute, but they are at cross purposes considering that one protects and the other herds and herding is just a controled version of hunting after all.

so, did you use lutalyse or another hormone to abort your bitch at one time?
if not, your answer is mood. we are talking about loosing a pregnancy through a naturally occurring hormone.

i know the risk of breast cancer and still have not have them amputated.

btw, my male GSD is as good with the goats and even better with the chicken then the Pyrs.

[GrannyCarol]

The mismate shot is very hard on the female, considered harder on her than having the litter of puppies unfortunately. You may want to do this, even with the risk, because you want to use her later for purebred pups and don't want the litter now. Just be aware that you are taking a risk with her health by doing it and also her future fertility. Generally I would let the bitch have the litter if I wanted to keep her intact, yours is rather young though. I'd get her in right away, the sooner you do it, the more likely you are to have options.

As for someone telling you the results of a uterine infection, that is valid information because of the increased risk you face with the shots. We lost one of our first Champion English Setters to a uterine infection many many years ago. She was a valuable breeding dog and our vet treated her, but finally decided a spay was the only option. Although the surgery was ok, she never woke up, no doubt her liver was compromised.

I've never used a mismate shot - having done my research, the few times in over 30 years of breeding and showing dogs I had mismates, I chose to allow them to have the pups, deeming it a much better health risk. Although this is a naturally occurring hormone, the use of it for a mismate shot is NOT natural, nor are the doses. It will cause hard cramping to clear the uterus and may not entirely do the job. It is painful and the fact that many uterine infections in dogs do not drain, but fill up with pus is something you want to consider.

Not an easy decision, that is just what I know about it.

[Oregon Julie]

Originally Posted by susanne

so, did you use lutalyse or another hormone to abort your bitch at one time?
if not, your answer is mood. we are talking about loosing a pregnancy through a naturally occurring hormone.

i know the risk of breast cancer and still have not have them amputated.

btw, my male GSD is as good with the goats and even better with the chicken then the Pyrs.

No Susanne, my ASD bitch was not bred, but you are missing my point. There is a significant chance of uterine infection when using a lut shot to abort a bitch. I did this once with a Parson Russell Terrier bitch who got bred by accident to another PRT that we did not want to use on her. She did get a pyo and was spayed.

You can do (and no doubt will) what you want with regards to this situation. I was just passing one my concerns about it and suggesting what I would do if I were in a similar boat.

I don't think equating this with having elective breast removal, just in case they might become cancerous is at all the same. It is more like drinking booze like a fish and destroying your liver doing it, at least in theory you know the risks when you do it and decide to do it anyway.

Also the fact hat your GSD is good with the goats is wonderful, that does not change the fact that it is a herding dog and the breeds natural instinct is the polar opposite of th at of a livestock guardian breed. There is no way of telling what traits the pups will pick up and god only knows there are plenty of mixed breeds out there in search of good homes and not finding them. Especially in the current economy it is sometimes tough to place well bred purebred dogs with all the appropriate health clearances on the parents of the litter. These will be really big mouths for someone to feed and I hope for your sake and theirs that she has a small litter if she is preggers.

[jen74145]

I've dealt with Pyometra in an unspayed, intended queen cat. Pretty little marbled thing, only female from my best queen, and she had to be spayed. I was very glad we caught it and she lived.

Pyo can happen after a natural miscarriage as well; open cervix and all that. We had an older queen miscarry and it was a concern, our vet had her on Clavamox for ten days after.

It is scary, and dangerous. I wonder if the vet would recommmend antibiotics after Lute, if that would help prevent it? Course, I'd throw probiotics down her too in that case... eeurgh.

[jordan]

Out of curiousity some years back, I asked my vet about using this if there was an unplanned pregnancy (since I've used lute on occasion with my goats) and his response was an unequivical NO!!! Said there were very few cases where it was worth the risk to the bitch. He has one of the most solid reputations here in the midwest and his answer was good enough for me.
Even with my feelings about mixing breeds (negative), if you plan on using her in the future, I would let her have the litter. Just place them carefully and honestly.
Lois

[susanne]

thank you for all the suggestions, i really appreciate it.
i will have to do some thinking before i will make a decision.
still hoping the breeding did not take place as they where not alone for very long. doesn't the male hooked up inside the bitch? for how long?
she is exactly a year old, very strong and very big. is this old enough? for some reason i always thought not to bred a dog on her first heat cycle.

[PNP Katahdins]

It's not the first heat cycle per se, it's the age and maturity of the bitch at the time of her first heat. Your pyr is not very mature at that age. The mismating shots in dogs are not as successful as in goats, plus more complications. Darned if you do, darned if you don't. Good luck.

The GSD could have a vasectomy rather than a castration, but that doesn't prevent prostate problems.

A friend of mine had a dog from a very young Newfoundland mother and whippet father, accidental breeding of course. The Newfie mom never grew as expected after that.

Peg

[Maura]

Is there a really really good reason that you are going to breed this bitch? Is she an absolute excellent example of her breed? There are so many lovely dogs begging for a home, including Prys. If she isn't the best of the best I would have her spayed now and be done with it. It takes several hours for the sperm to contact the egg, so technically, she's not pregnant yet. Some vets will not do a spay during a heat cycle, but your vet might. Or your vet may be able to do a blood or urine test to see if she is pregnant, ask.

[susanne]

Originally Posted by Maura

Is there a really really good reason that you are going to breed this bitch? Is she an absolute excellent example of her breed?

maura she might not be a show dog (don't know because i don't show) but she is an excellent example of her bred with outstanding temperament.
i would love to have two more like her.

[Oregon Julie]

Just because a dog is good at it's job, be that in the field or in the show ring, does not mean that it is worth of being bred from. In Pyrs they should have various health tests done prior to breeding. This includes OFA hips and patellas, thryoid, and heart testing.

I have a Kuvasz bitch who is an outstanding working dog, but I would not even think of breeding her until I had the appropriate health tests done on her and that the same would have to be said to the dog she was bred to. She is 5 now and won't be bred for various reasons, mainly that finding a actual working Kuvasz male that I like is almost impossible, most are show dogs. However even if I could, even though she is 5 years old and sound with no signs of any of the issues that the breed can have, I would still do my testing before breeding.

I know my above statement is going to ---- some people off, but health testing is, IMO, extremely important. No, you cannot be absolutely certain that you will end up with a healthy animal this way but it sure takes a lot of the guess work out of it.

[Willowynd]

I have been in your situation before when I had a bitch have a split season- not only had she not had her hip xrays or thyroid testing done yet, but she was 2 yrs old (and I don;t breed bitches till 3 as they are not mature yet- still growing themselves) and she was a sable merle and bred to her sable merle brother- so I feared defective puppies due to that. I talked to vets and many other breeders and decided it was too risky as it can cause severe pyo or breeding issues. The concensus was that if I wanted to preserve the bitch for future breeding, it was safer for her to have the litter. She had a litter of 8- half normal ( 2 normal eyed even) and half defective homozygous merles (2 blind and deaf- PTS and one deaf and one blind)....but they were gorgeous and healthy and she did a pretty good job for her age. Upside- I got a few show pups out of the litter and found out her CERF was wrong (she was actually normal eyed but opth read her blue eye as affected) and got lots of experience with special needs dogs and she will be fine to be bred when I am ready. Downside- I still have half the litter here and had to make a tough choice with the severely defective puppies.

[Willowynd]

Originally Posted by susanne

maura she might not be a show dog (don't know because i don't show) but she is an excellent example of her bred with outstanding temperament.
i would love to have two more like her.

I can tell you- it is much cheaper to buy 2 just like her than to whelp and raise a litter.

[copperhead46]

Take her to the vet and let him give her the shot, I've used it several times and I've never had a problem with the bitch. I use it at the appropriate time, vet will tell you when. It's a lot better than an unwanted litter.
P.J.

[mygoat]

If an infection can occur, why not do a round of antibiotics at the same time, for prevention?

And also, why do goats not get infections regularly? I know lute is used very often in goats to get them to abort after a misbreeding, early breeding, or even just to bring them into heat.