Great Dane Babies

[vulpinefarms]

I have a few puppies left in my litter of 14. Great bloodlines and super health guarantee. Email me at vulpinegreatdanes@yahoo.com if interested. They turned 8 weeks yesterday. I am located in Hutchinson, KS. Thanks!

[Beaners]

Usually I'm not a merle girl, but I would love that first merle male if we hadn't just thrown every spare cent at a down payment on a house.

Kayleigh

[Maura]

I looked at the 3 generation pedigree and I don't see any champion or other titles on any of the dogs. Is this an oversight?

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by Maura

I looked at the 3 generation pedigree and I don't see any champion or other titles on any of the dogs. Is this an oversight?

I was just looking at this as well. I have a Great Dane and when I got him I made sure he came from a showing breeder that produced champions. The whole point of breeding is to continue the breed standard. A judge is who I look to for upholding that by awarding points/championships.

I even met with my breeder a few times at shows she was competing in.

My Dane's sire was an AKC Champion, his mother was pointed but not finished, though. They both came from lines with champions.

If anyone is interested in getting a Dane please make sure that the breeder does health testing. OFA testing, especially for hips (or PennHIP) and CERF testing on eyes are two you should be concerned about. Especially the hip testing as Danes are so prone to hip problems.

[Beaners]

http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthr...71#post3112671

I notice some testing is mentioned in a previous thread, I don't know about the rest though.

But, like I said, I don't have the money to spare right now anyways, so I'm not too worried about it.

Kayleigh

edited to add: Having another rescue pup in the house for a few weeks should cure me of any desire to get another dog anyways.

[Judith]

I'm not interested in a pup but I have a color question. The black and whites are listed as "mantles" When I was showing (dobies so I have no idea about danes) they were called "Bostons" What is the correct color term? Just curious

[vulpinefarms]

They used to be called Bostons, now they are called Mantles. I'm not sure exactly when the change went through, but I don't think it's been very long.

I posted a brief pedigree on the website. Mom has a 7 gen. ped posted on her page, and dad's mom was an import from Italy with a World CH sire, amongst others.

I could go on and on but I won't. I'm breeding for show too, but just because you're just getting started on your line, doesn't mean your dogs aren't worth any less than a top show breeder. They had to start somewhere too. I have CH sired dogs too. I talked to their breeders too. And I am good/ethical breeder. If you're interested in a puppy feel free to email me and learn about my philsophies, etc. I love to talk about them.
Thanks! Talena

[TedH71]

To me, having a dog for a dog show is basically just getting a dog for a beauty show. It does NOTHING to prevent the dog from having genetic problems AND also if the dog is a working breed, then the dog NEEDS to show working ability!

[cricket]

No fair. The harl girl is still available. You really should warn a person first.... LOL I wish I could get into showing. I'd take that little harl girl off your hands in a minute. Btw, didn't Show Me the Money finish? I know he's pointed but I couldn't remember if he ever finished or not. You have a beautiful crew going there. Which ones, if any, are you showing currently? Avy looks like she's a winner...so does your new male. Forgive me, I can't remember the black's name....Is she short on the hind? Or is she just young? She's gorgeous regardless.

But if I brought home 1 more I think my husband would move out.... Having 4 danes in the house makes for a lot of work. Know anyone that wants to adopt a rescue? I have 2 up for adoption.... Not as pretty as yours but very sweet....

[Judith]

Thank you for answering my color question. I have always loved Danes and would hate to call them the wrong thing and seem disrespectful. Don't worry about your pedigrees LOL There are lots of champions in there. Most people can't seem to look past the American championship. I brought in Dobies from Holland. World champions all over the pedigree, but the US show breeders didnt seem to acknowlege that. Plus in Europe breeds have to pass a temperment test.

[Naturaldane]

IM not going to go into a whole lot of scuff over this, but dogs that show, that have been deemed worthy enough to be bred, come from dogs that are finished, not something you build up to, it took me three years to figure that out. Even having two pups to show out of the best fawn bloodline you can get, I still have yet to place past 2nd in a show, for one, the dogs and I are not experenced enough, two Im not known as a handler and judges like the pros because they can deliver every time just about.
Showings not easy, but nothing worth having ever is. I paid 900 for one, 2000 for the other, most non show bred danes go for that, so its not like theres a huge price difference either.
I have a merle out of the top lines, but its taken only three generations from those champions to produce something so far off target, i love her just the same, but she shouldnt be bred, when I get calls for danes needing rescue every day.

Im not anti breeder, to each his own, but if you honestly want to build a line, then start with the cream of the crop and earn the respect as a dane breeder and not start from the distant champions.
I say this, because you are trying to do things right, and it took some one telling me the exact same thing several times before I got it.

[Naturaldane]

btw, champion or not, those are cute pups

[TedH71]

I have nothing against show dogs just dogs that are bred just for beauty when they used to be more than that. Like for example: Great Danes used to be boar hunts and were a lot different back then than they're today. I highly doubt you could find any that could hunt boars. I would love to have one that does. I suspect that it would have to do more with the dog being smaller than an average great dane because they would be less clumsy. Lol!

[Willow101]

I think you folks are putting entirely too much emphasis on champions in a pedigree. When I was showing and breeding dogs I did look for 'proven' pedigrees...those that were loaded with titles and top producing dogs. As I got wiser I began to realize that the title in front of the dog's name is no guarantee that the dog even comes close to the breed standard.

There are many ways to get a title on a dog. The most common is to hire a handler and let the handler hide the dog's problems, train the dog to perfection and then pick and choose judges that will put the handler up. There are many many dogs out there with titles that are pet quality dogs with show quality handlers. I've seen dogs in the ring that should have won but lost to a much inferior dog but the handler showed the inferior dog better than the handler who was dragging around the good quality dog. What a shame that our judges can't see past showmanship and see the real dog.

Lets not forget the champions who had braces on their teeth, creases in their ears to fix the ear set...or glue to fix the ear set, broken tails with metal rods to fix the tail set, strung up on a lease to fix front movement, tranquilizers to hide freaks...etc., etc. I've seen a lot in my 40 years in the dog game and I have come to the conclusion that dog shows have done more to destroy a breed than any back yard breeder could ever do.

The best way to choose breeding stock is to get your hands on as many dogs in the pedigrees as possible and see why they have or don't have a conformation title. Look at the dogs without titles and find out if they don't have a title simply because no one took them in the ring...or if they really were pet quality.

I do really like to see a pedigree with some up close titles but I don't dismiss a dog in a breeding program because of a lack of titles. I dismiss dogs in a breeding program because of lack of quality and the only way to find that out is look at the dog and any dogs you can in the pedigree. And the reverse is true also. I do not include a dog in a breeding program just because of titles in a pedigree. I include dogs that either have correct structure themselves or come from pedigrees that continually produce quality.

I visited the VulpinDane web site and there are some nice looking dogs on the site which appear to have potential if used in the correct way. We all have to start somewhere and most of us cannot afford top show prices and the services of the top ranked handlers. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be playing in the dog game. It means the road to success is going to be a lot harder though.

Willow101

[JasoninMN]

Well said Willow.

One thing that bothers the heck out of me with the giant breeds is the fact that being giant is an excuse for all their hereditary problems and short life spans. I believe this is a result of bad breeding practices and not just being extremely large. The problems have been accepted by breeders and have now become a norm for some breeds. There are plenty of giant breeds out there that live long lives and have few hereditary problems, they aren't popular show dogs though.

[Pops2]

Ted
forget it, the show crowd in general is too self absorbed to care about the damage done to their "favorite" breed. none of them have the faintest idea of how conformation actually applies to doing the job. on top of that if you even suggest putting a dane in the woods on a boar, on the couple of dane specific forums i've been on, you'll be treated like you are hitler's little brother. i can count on one finger the person who didn't disagree w/ my intent (didn't agree either) and one hand the number that disagreed in a respectful way. i'll have to take off my boots to count the idiots that raved like maniacs in very personal attacks. with only a couple of exceptions, regardless of breed this is the exact same response no matter the job.

[vulpinefarms]

I like to hear all of this in such a non confrontational way. A LOT of Dane people are of the mind set if it's not their way, it's no way. But I guess we all have our own philsophies on what we want to achieve out of our dogs. I've been snubbed by some of the top breeders, and I think that that kind of attitude hurts the breed. So I've tried to be very helpful and open with anyone I speak to about the breed, and surprise surprise I've gotten comments like you are the nicest/most helpful breeder we've spoke with! So I think that philsophy will get me further than kissing some top breeders you know what because they could care less about most of the "little people". But that's just my opinion. I also am friends with a Master Breeder in Europe, who I guarantee knows a lot more about European pedigrees than most American wanna be Euro breeders. So I feel confident that when I add in a Euro pedigree to my dogs I'm adding the BEST according to my reliable sources. I believe Danes should be working dogs too. :-) But that's all for now! My pups ARE beautiful and I'm really proud of them. And the new puppy owners are just as happy! Have a GREAT Dane day. :-)

[Willow101]

Originally Posted by Pops2

Ted
forget it, the show crowd in general is too self absorbed to care about the damage done to their "favorite" breed. none of them have the faintest idea of how conformation actually applies to doing the job. on top of that if you even suggest putting a dane in the woods on a boar, .....snip....

While I agree that there are groups within the show crowd that can't see farther than the next dog show and title, and I very much agree that the phrase 'form follows function' is not understood or strived for in the show ring, I can tell you from first hand experience that the working crowd does the same thing. Neither side recognizes that both competitions have merit.....kind of like the environmentalists and big business. There is a middle ground to saving the planet and making money and there is a middle ground in breeding a good dog.

The original purpose of the show ring was to show off breeding stock that was already working in the field. In other words....the ideal purebred dog (or any domestic purebred animal for that matter) should have breed type and ability to do the job they are bred to do. So you need the working arena and the show arena to prove you have a well rounded animal. What has happened is the two types of competitions have parted ways and are now adversaries. Working people look down their noses at the show crowd and the show crowd look down their noses at the working crowd.

Society itself has influenced the breeding of dogs. A century ago there was a need to breed Great Danes to kill wild boar. Now there is virtually no demand for that type of dog. Since there are no owners (or very few) using the breed for the purpose it was originally intended, the dog has evolved strictly from the influence of the show ring and as a pet. In order to breed pet Great Danes you must eliminate aggressive temperament....temperament that probably was needed to be tough enough to deal with wild boar. Failure to modify that working temperament could mean the failure of the breed as a whole so the breeders did their homework and 'fixed' the temperament to fit into today's society. Is that wrong....maybe. But failure to modify a breed to fit modern demand may contribute to the extinction of the breed and I can say that I personally would hate to see the Great Dane disappear as a breed. I have owned and bred Great Danes and would own one today if I could fit the purchase price in my budget.

The Doberman is another breed that has been altered to fit the market. Herr Doberman developed the ultimate guard dog who put the fear of God in anyone they encountered. Modern day breeders realized that the need for such a fierce animal was disappearing and worked hard to modify temperament to suit market demands. They were successful and while the old Dobie reputation still lingers, the Dob of today is a wonderful family pet while still demonstrating an acceptable level of guarding instinct.

The Pit Bull is at the opposite end of the scale. The working purpose of the pit bull is no longer needed yet the breed is being used for dog fighting and breeders pay little attention to the qualities needed to be a good pet and fit into modern society. Because of this, the breed is not often suitable as a pet. Yes, some are but there is no consistency in genetic characteristics needed to be a dependable pet. Pits that end up in shelters are automatically killed and it is because the average pit breeder gives no thought to today's society and 'legal' purpose.

Its interesting that some of the old time herding trial trainers I have spoken with say that working titles do not nessecarily mean the dog will be a good farm dog. There exists the same mentality in the performance arena as the show....that they must gather titles at all cost and if the dog must be modified to win, its ok. The example I am familiar with is the Australian Shepherd working dog being crossed with the BC to get more eye...yet still represented as a pure and registered Aussie. So who is right and who is wrong? The show crowd that follows fads in structure that are detrimental to the purpose of a breed ...or the working crowd that follows fads in performance that are detrimental to the integrity of the breed?

My opinion...we should be able to recognize good dogs whether they are in the show ring or the performance ring and understand that the best dogs can compete successfully in both arenas....if that purpose still exists. But we also need to understand society demands .......and recognize when a breed must change to meet the needs of society. The single most popular purpose of almost all breeds is as a pet first and working dog second. The Great Dane is a popular pet. Does it need a pedigree full of champions to be healthy, have correct temperment and correct structure? No! Does it need to be aggressive enough to hunt wild boar in today's society? No!

Unfortunately for all of you I tend to write volumes. I apologize again for the lengthy post...but that is just the way I communicate. Dogs are a passion of mine and I never tire of a good discussion about the merits and problems in today's world of dogs.

Willow101

[Wolf Flower]

Originally Posted by Willow101

So who is right and who is wrong? The show crowd that follows fads in structure that are detrimental to the purpose of a breed ...or the working crowd that follows fads in performance that are detrimental to the integrity of the breed?

This has been a huge argument in the German Shepherd world as well. There is a monumental split between working vs. show in this country. Really, they should be two separate breeds because the American showline dog in no way represents the original GSD. The European GSDs come a little closer in terms of a dual-purpose dog, as their show dogs must have a working title in order to compete at the higher levels. But those "working" titles are in fact a stylized event that follows a rigid pattern, and all but the most feeble or neurotic dog can be trained to pass it (I doubt that 1% of American showline dogs could).

So there is yet another split in Europe, the split between show dogs that have a minimal "working" title, and the performance-bred dog that gets a minimal show rating and excels in higher working trials (similar to OTCH in AKC). A few show dogs will make it in the higher working trials, but most won't.

Then there is yet another split--the people who have "real" working dogs, police, military, SAR, etc who feel that the trial-bred GSD has evolved a temperament suited only for trialing, and not for real-life working situations.

I am quite sure the same splits exist for any breed that still works--herding, hunting, guarding... probably the only breeds who have not evolved away from their original purpose are the toys.

[Willow101]

Excellent post Wolf Flower.

A friend of mine shows GSDs in conformation and I don't know how she lives with their temperament issues and health issues...not to mention the extreme structural requirements to be competitive in the show ring. A GSD with a pedigree full of show champions is about the farthest thing from my idea of a good dog as you can get...yet I started as a teen in the breed and still love the good ones today.

Willow101