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  #1  
Old 07/18/07, 11:13 PM
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Question Shiloh Shepherds...?

I am intrigued by these beautiful dogs...anyone have any experiance regarding them? Any clue where to find one in eastern Kansas? For those of you who have never heard of them, take a look:

http://dogbreedinfo.com/shilohshepherd.htm

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  #2  
Old 07/18/07, 11:30 PM
 
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in a nutshell extra large german sheperds linebred to reproduce the size & temperament of the foundation stock.

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  #3  
Old 07/19/07, 01:03 AM
 
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Very few breeders are getting hips certified, despite a problem with dysplasia in the breed. Dogs usually have a soft temperament - makes a nice family pet, not a serious protection dog.

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  #4  
Old 07/19/07, 02:13 AM
 
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What MaryDVM said, plus the fact that the breeders are crazy political. If you like the look, just find a 'plush' or 'longcoated' puppy from a reputable GSD breeder.

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  #5  
Old 07/19/07, 09:03 AM
 
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The mother of a girl I used to work with breeds them here in western Pennsylvania. From what I understand, they're 95% German Shepard with some husky and a few other breeds mixed in. And yes, it seems that there's quite a bit of nastiness going on between the breeders because none of them can agree on what exactly constitutes a "Shiloh Shepard" (i.e. colors, conformation, etc.). Plus, they're super pricey...this woman asks $1000 and up for one of her pups. That seems an awful lot to pay for a dog that's not recognized by the AKC and has no true breed standard!

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  #6  
Old 07/19/07, 10:08 AM
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Yes they are great big German Shepherds. I've known two. One of them died at 2 of a genetic heart condition. Neither of them were well trained at all (you could hear them whining/crying from a block away when ever they had to come to the clinic), so my opinion of the breed is a bit jaded. They weren't mean at all though.

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  #7  
Old 07/19/07, 04:30 PM
 
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You will pay a lot of money for a dog that isn't AKC registered, which may or may not matter to you. Do alot of research first. They are known for having physical problems, including hip dysplasia. Educate yourself as to all of the medical problems they face, how prevalent the problems are, and which of them can be tested for. Any breeder worth his or her salt tests their breeding stock before breeding. A vet certification that a dog or puppy is healthy is not the same as testing.

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  #8  
Old 07/19/07, 08:42 PM
 
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Here's another big shepherd based on GSD's - http://kingshepherd.com

I believe these also have a bit of Great Pyrennes in them, as well as at least one other breed. They are not recognized by AKC, and are quite expensive.

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  #9  
Old 07/19/07, 11:48 PM
 
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as i prefer working dogs, you couldn't pay me to take an AKC registered dog of any breed. on second thought i would take one BUT ONLY if you gave me A LOT of money.

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  #10  
Old 07/20/07, 01:08 AM
 
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Pops- wouldn't it make more sense, if you wanted say, a working GSD, to take a dual registered dog (like most working GSDs- imported dogs- are) that was already titled in Schutzhund or ringsport of some sort, than to take your average $100 from the newspaper no papers GSD puppy? I fail to see how AKC papers suddenly makes a dog's working instincts, evaporate.

One of the biggies on the Shilohs is that they aren't proven in any venues at all. No conformation titles, no obedience titles, no nothing to prove the 'better temperament' or anything than GSDs- just a lot of hype.

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  #11  
Old 07/20/07, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corgitails
One of the biggies on the Shilohs is that they aren't proven in any venues at all. No conformation titles, no obedience titles, no nothing to prove the 'better temperament' or anything than GSDs- just a lot of hype.
This is one of the down sides to the breed not being AKC registered - less venues where they are eligible to be shown. UKC has the 'rare breed classes' for obedience, but only if the animal is spayed/neutered, so that doesn't help a bit if your goal is to prove breeding stock.

I used to track with a group from the Baltimore area, and there was a Shiloh Shepherd in my group. The woman did SAR with hers & it had a calm stable, but neither wimpy nor aggressive temperament. I remember talking with her about her frustration cause she had done lots of obedience training and had nowhere to show, cause of the breed.

There was another group of Shiloh Shepherd owners that used to attend a lcoal clubs conformation matches & I was much less impressed with them than the Maryland Shilohs. I just found the website of the woman I know from MD.
http://shilohshepherds.net/kennel.htm
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  #12  
Old 07/20/07, 02:35 PM
 
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Actually, there's quite a few venues they can show in, and if people were serious, they could at least save semen, neuter the boys, and show them in ASCA, UKC, etc. And I'm fairly sure NADAC and USDAA don't have s/n requirements.

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  #13  
Old 07/20/07, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corgitails
Actually, there's quite a few venues they can show in, and if people were serious, they could at least save semen, neuter the boys, and show them in ASCA, UKC, etc. And I'm fairly sure NADAC and USDAA don't have s/n requirements.
True about NADAC & USDAA. You mentioned conformation and obedience though, not agility. I think there's a new obedience venue or two since I was involved with it, that does allow any dog. APDT has rally for everyone. (I think) I was referring more to a conversation with a specific person (whose has females) that took place about 8 years ago. From her webiste, it does seem like she eventually found places to earn titles.
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  #14  
Old 07/20/07, 03:30 PM
 
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well, conformation and obedience are my sports :P- I mostly meant performance in general.

I've been VERY unimpressed with the shilohs I've seen, frankly- they just aren't any sounder or healthier or smarter or more trainable than your average well-bred GSD, and the price tag's a lot higher. They're probably more suitable for a pet home that can't live with the moderate drive of most American obedience line and show line dogs, but I don't think that a breed should be dumbed down just for pet owners, you know?

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  #15  
Old 07/21/07, 01:18 AM
 
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Corgitails
if i actually wanted a sheperd type PP dog i'd go w/ a dutch sheperd or imported GSD (east german or czech lines) trained in one of the sports w/ more fighting intensity & less sending & searching and forego AKC registration all together.
But since i prefer bull & mastiff types, i would actually go for a nice Lucero or Steeltrap Bandog, or Scott/Painter line American bulldog, and the Warlock line of Old Southern White AB, although Clinton Cilliers of South Africa has some outstanding performance Neos (not obese, unhealthy wrinkle monsters) and Alex at Red Star has some premo working Presa Canarios and John Blackwell's Boerboels are everything they should be and then there is Dom's Donovan Pinscher (still too sheperdy for me though).
As you can see not much in there is AKC registered and some never will be.
plain and simple AKC registration has not helped the working ability of any breed as a whole, EVER and has been detrimental to most because the AKC is most strongly oriented to conformation showing. that field is dominated by people who don't work and don't know what it takes for a dog to do the job it is bred for. further they usually affiliate w/breed clubs that think the same. then they usually change the personality of the breeds to make it more amenable to the show circuit and lose the working personality in the process. then they usually change the standard to glom onto a particular look that usually ruins the health of the breed.
yes, the impeccable history of the show fancy at preserving the working abilities is why there are show & field type pointers & setters, it's why boxers, danes & english bulldogs are pretty much absent from the boar hunting scene in the USA, its why western wolfers use coldblood greys, staghounds (linebred crosses of grey to deerhound or irish wolfhound) & shags (linebred crosses of grey to saluki or borzoi) to catch coyotes. do i really need to go on?

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  #16  
Old 07/21/07, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pops2
plain and simple AKC registration has not helped the working ability of any breed as a whole, EVER and has been detrimental to most because the AKC is most strongly oriented to conformation showing. that field is dominated by people who don't work and don't know what it takes for a dog to do the job it is bred for. further they usually affiliate w/breed clubs that think the same. then they usually change the personality of the breeds to make it more amenable to the show circuit and lose the working personality in the process. then they usually change the standard to glom onto a particular look that usually ruins the health of the breed.
The English Bulldog is a classic example of this. The Border Collie people and the Jack Russell Terrier people both fought (unsuccessfully) to keep their breed OUT of the AKC, as they fear it will ruin the breed. I believe their fears are well founded. American show-bred German Shepherds are a completely different animal than the European GSD, and it saddens me greatly to see a knock-kneed, hock-walking, needle-nosed bag of nerves they call a "German Shepherd" slinking through an AKC show looking like its eyes are going to pop out of its head.

I have no issue with conformation showing per se. It's just that conformation showing has become an end unto itself, and many breeders could care less about the qualities their breed came into being for. Fortunately, many others actively participate in field trials, schutzhund, obdience, tracking, earthdog trials, herding trials, and what have you. But it is not required, and so the common perception is that a "Champion" show dog is the pinnacle of what the breed should represent.

In Germany, German Shepherds are still required to pass a temperament test and working trial as well conformation in order to receive the show rating that would allow them to be bred. It's not a perfect system, but it is still worlds better than what we have with AKC.
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  #17  
Old 07/21/07, 05:40 PM
 
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Wolf Flower
"It's not a perfect system, but it is still worlds better than what we have with AKC."
AMEN brother
each breed based on it's origin should be titled or certified in it's area of work or a reasonable substitute for example the dane should have to start a track follow it and catch a boar or get a schutzhund title since both test trailing ability as well as fight drive. pitty's could be titled as catch dogs or ratting dogs in a rat pit. sighthounds would have to run down & catch appropriate game like jackrabbit, cottontail, fox coyote or deer. no title, no show champion!
fortunately there are already many organizations to facilitate this.
unfortunately Americans as a whole are now to bambified & squeamish.

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  #18  
Old 07/21/07, 06:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Flower
In Germany, German Shepherds are still required to pass a temperament test and working trial as well conformation in order to receive the show rating that would allow them to be bred. It's not a perfect system, but it is still worlds better than what we have with AKC.
Although the German system may be somewhat superior to the AKC world, the GSD show people there have still managed to create their own mutant "highline" dog with a back so roached that it looks like the dog's rear is trying to outrun its front. The protection tests at the breed shows have been softened so much that they really don't tell you much about the dog's working ability(except how bad the ones who fail are). Even in Germany, if you want a real working dog, you stay away from show lines.
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  #19  
Old 07/22/07, 11:06 AM
 
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Thats why my GSD's are Czech imports with strong border patrol/shutzhund backgrounds. They are what working dogs should be . I have pups placed with law enforecement , search and rescue etc. I have 3 pups currently available.


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  #20  
Old 07/22/07, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MARYDVM
Although the German system may be somewhat superior to the AKC world, the GSD show people there have still managed to create their own mutant "highline" dog with a back so roached that it looks like the dog's rear is trying to outrun its front. The protection tests at the breed shows have been softened so much that they really don't tell you much about the dog's working ability(except how bad the ones who fail are). Even in Germany, if you want a real working dog, you stay away from show lines.
Oh, I know that. But it is a step up compared to what we have in AKC to prove working temperament, which is absolutely nothing (unless you count the disqualification if the dog bites the judge). It could be really hard to watch American champions attempt a courage test, even as soft as it is... I envision dogs tripping over themselves to get out of the ring, screaming with terror and leaving a trail of urine as they go.
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