First Starter Flock - Questions

CSarsfield · #1 04/19/13, 03:26 PM

I was going to put off getting sheep until next year, but I have the opportunity to buy the heritage breed I want now - so much for plans. I am considering buying the following Registered Tunis sheep:

(3) 6 year old (two twined this year, one had a single)
(1) 8 year old (twined this year)
(1) 2 year old (single lamb, first lamb this year)
(1) Unrelated ram to breed them in late fall born on Jan 29th

They are asking $1200 firm for the starter flock and they will deliver them for the price of gas (75 miles each way). I thought this was a good price because tunis lambs are usually ridiculously expensive and hard to find around here - what are your thoughts?

Second, housing - I am an animal housing minimalist. I want my animals to have enough, but I tend to go with 3 sided shelters with open south faces. I was thinking of a cattle panel hoop house with plenty of hay to bed down in in the winter, and the same without the hay in spring, summer and fall being rotated through the paddocks for shade and shelter - does this sound about right?

Third, pasture management. I have (11) 70ft x 70ft paddocks that I rotate my Ayrshire cow through and her steer (6 mos old). Can I graze the cow with the lambs and the steer with ram? I was hoping that they would provide companionship to one another - if they were compatible together. I am also thinking about running pigs through as well, but I have wooded areas for the pigs as well. One of my main concerns is the ram being alone. I have to keep him separate from the sheep, but I hate the idea of an animal being alone on pasture.

Finally, the lambs are used to sheep netting, so I plan on using that - at least to start with, but may want to go to electric strand. Is 3 strand electric enough to keep most sheep in?

BTW, I live in the very upstate of New York, about 60 miles north of Watertown, NY. The temps in the winter go to -30 F without the wind chill and not infrequently for a week at a time. Thanks for any advice you can give in this venture.

Christopher

krebolj · #2 04/19/13, 05:04 PM

That is average pricing, although for buying that many I would see if you could get a better deal. I only bought 3 and got them at $200 each.

bergere · #3 04/20/13, 05:32 AM

If you plan on lambing in winter, or in an iffy spring, you will want better shelter if something goes south, so to speak.

As for price, it can depend greatly on the area of the country you live in.
As an example, a Katahdin wether lamb in Oregon from a well taken care of healthy flock... $75.00 max in cost.
Here in VA,, when you can find them... you are looking at sheep heavily wormy, in ill health with pink eye,,, they are charging a Min of $150.00.

The other issue, is sheep can't not have any feed or mineral/salt the cow may have, as it has too much copper in it.

For fencing,, the sheep "might" stay in 3 strands of Electric, if it is properly grounded and you are using a predator/sheep rated charger.

For the Ram, if you want him in a good state of mind, he will need a buddy, you could pick him up a cheap wether, doesn't matter the breed. Would also make sure the wether is at least the same size he is.

I won't run pigs in with other animals... they get hungry, they will eat anything.. including sheep and lambs.

CSarsfield · #4 04/21/13, 09:12 AM

I plan on lambing in April, in order to stay away from the cold, and I will set up some kind of jugs for the lambing sheep.

With regard to copper, I had read that, and that would put a damper on free choice minerals if I ran them together.

With regard to the ram, I think I am just going to buy a couple extra ram lambs and run them with him. I could use the meat anyway. I am very excited about getting sheep, hopefully all goes well. Thank you for all the help.

Christopher

sheepish · #5 04/22/13, 05:26 AM

Sorry to possibly put a damper on your excitement, but...
An 8 year old ewe is nearing the end of her reproductive life. She isn't worth much more than she would bring for meat, about $100. The 6 year old has had her best reproductive years used also. Lets say $200 for her. A ewe who singled as a 2 year old is a very average Tunis. Not worth paying extra for, again say $200. So you are paying $700 for a ram and getting ewes that you will have to replace soon. Is that a good deal to you?

CSarsfield · #6 04/22/13, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepish

Sorry to possibly put a damper on your excitement, but...

No damper at all, I come on these boards to find information I need to hear not information I want to hear.

Quote:

An 8 year old ewe is nearing the end of her reproductive life. She isn't worth much more than she would bring for meat, about $100.

She is a very young and healthy looking 8 year old, so I was thinking I wanted her for her genetics. Certainly, I could have made a mistake, but if I get one ewe as good as her, I think she will be worth the money.

Quote:

The 6 year old has had her best reproductive years used also. Lets say $200 for her.

I am getting 3 six year old ewes, not 1.

Quote:

A ewe who singled as a 2 year old is a very average Tunis. Not worth paying extra for, again say $200.

This was her first lambing, and I thought tunis first lambing singles were common.

Quote:

So you are paying $700 for a ram and getting ewes that you will have to replace soon. Is that a good deal to you?

My thinking was that I am getting good genetics, and experienced mothers, and since this is my first venture in to sheep, I thought at least one of us (the sheep) should know what they are doing. Each ewe is costing me $200 as well as $200 for the ram, so 6 sheep for $1200. I know I could have gotten grade ewes for $100-$150, but I really wanted the breed. Not for show, although these are coming from a show flock, but because they supposedly do well on rough pasture and grass based systems. I also do not want sheep that have more lambs then they can mother. I do not want to be the mother to a bunch of orphaned lambs. Tunis are also scarce here. The only other breeder within 100 miles wants $250-300 for an ewe lamb. Finally, I do want to thank you for the feed back. Your post made me think, and those are the replies I like and the replies I have gotten. Great forum.

krebolj · #7 04/22/13, 09:34 AM

The thing is though, with the Tunis, they generally are all great mothers- that is part of the breed characteristics. A good breeder will listen to you and scour their records to find what you are looking for. I told the farm I went through, that I wanted to milk and hand-spin so he went the the paperwork on every ewe he had for sale to check their growth rate (faster growth means more milk), and twinning percentage and while I was at the farm they flipped 20 ewes over for me to look at teat length and then walked me through so I could see their mothers. The ewes I bought are yearlings, ready to breed in August and sired by the national reserve champion. This farm really set me up for success with sheep. They are also 100% grass fed, except when they are nursing lambs and then they feed a minimal amount of grain- we discussed this in length because I told them that was why I was getting rid of my goats- I can't afford 6lbs of grain daily per doe in milk.

All in all, as it was said above I would seriously think it over before purchasing 6 and 8 year old ewes at that price. Most of the farms I have talked to have culled their old (8) ewes because of loss of performance. I have seen common practice to give the old ewes for free. Don't be afraid to drive for your money's worth. Tunis are rare all over- there are only two farms by me and they are both three hours away. I will be making the trip again this summer to pick up a ram from the other farm. It is well worth the time spent in the beginning to make sure you have assembled a good flock, that way down the road you won't be driving all over the place again looking for replacements.

**Ross** · #8 04/22/13, 12:33 PM

I would pass, the majority are too old, to be worth much. Buy less animals pay more and get the best young animals you can find. Be picky.

ErikaMay · #9 04/22/13, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bergere

I won't run pigs in with other animals... they get hungry, they will eat anything.. including sheep and lambs.

I run my sheep and pigs together, but i feed them grain and pasture so the pgis don't get too hungry. Only problem is grain competition...I don't give any to the ram in general so he tries to steal it from the pigs. and if the sheep get it when the pigs don't have any...well, you can imagine. I usually feed them at the same time and everyone eats their own food.

I did remove my ewes from the pigs when they lambed: it is too tempting to nosh on plecenta. But very quickly the sheep were reintroduced and its worked out good. Infact, big ol' Roise the pig will chase the ram off if he's bothering the ewes too much. (Today I think I witnessed the pig and ram getting amourous. :| ) Personally, I think her smell has also kept predators at bay. at 600 lbs she could put up a good fight. The ram seems to prefer the company of the piglets. I BRED for good piggy dispositions. There are mean pigs out there who i have no doubt would chew on a sheep, but mine a generally well natured.

bergere · #10 04/23/13, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErikaMay

I run my sheep and pigs together, but i feed them grain and pasture so the pgis don't get too hungry. Only problem is grain competition...I don't give any to the ram in general so he tries to steal it from the pigs. and if the sheep get it when the pigs don't have any...well, you can imagine. I usually feed them at the same time and everyone eats their own food.

I did remove my ewes from the pigs when they lambed: it is too tempting to nosh on plecenta. But very quickly the sheep were reintroduced and its worked out good. Infact, big ol' Roise the pig will chase the ram off if he's bothering the ewes too much. (Today I think I witnessed the pig and ram getting amourous. :| ) Personally, I think her smell has also kept predators at bay. at 600 lbs she could put up a good fight. The ram seems to prefer the company of the piglets. I BRED for good piggy dispositions. There are mean pigs out there who i have no doubt would chew on a sheep, but mine a generally well natured.

You have been lucky. Both DH's and my family have raised pigs, know friends that have tried to run pigs with other stock.... never worked out well.

**Ross** · #11 04/23/13, 07:19 AM

I wouldn't trust a pig either. Deep in their little piggie hearts, they know a sheep or lamb is food.

krebolj · #12 04/23/13, 08:29 AM

I know people who have the calmest, most friendly Kune Kunes and they still eat goat kids if they get the chance. My pigs are kept separate from everything but the chickens, who have learned to stay away.

ShadowfaxFarm · #13 04/23/13, 08:37 AM

I have two rams now but the winter before I ran my ram with a yearling Dexter bull and they made pretty good companions. You can try running your ramlamb and steer together. they might work out well and then if they didn't you could get another ram/wether to live with him.

As for the ewes being too old...I think the price is a little high but not super high for quality registered stock. However, it is not unheard of to pay $300 for a good registered ramlamb so if you put him at $300.
I can't buy a registered 2 year old Oxford (my breed of choice) ewe for less then $300 and know I've seen young registered tunis listed for similar prices so you could look at it as having $600 wrapped up in the ram and young ewe and the remaining $600 split between the 4 older ewes...Do I think you're getting the flock cheap? no...but I think it is a decent deal if they are what you want.

grandma12703 · #14 04/23/13, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSarsfield

I was going to put off getting sheep until next year, but I have the opportunity to buy the heritage breed I want now - so much for plans. I am considering buying the following Registered Tunis sheep:

(3) 6 year old (two twined this year, one had a single)
(1) 8 year old (twined this year)
(1) 2 year old (single lamb, first lamb this year)
(1) Unrelated ram to breed them in late fall born on Jan 29th

They are asking $1200 firm for the starter flock and they will deliver them for the price of gas (75 miles each way). I thought this was a good price because tunis lambs are usually ridiculously expensive and hard to find around here - what are your thoughts?

Second, housing - I am an animal housing minimalist. I want my animals to have enough, but I tend to go with 3 sided shelters with open south faces. I was thinking of a cattle panel hoop house with plenty of hay to bed down in in the winter, and the same without the hay in spring, summer and fall being rotated through the paddocks for shade and shelter - does this sound about right?

Third, pasture management. I have (11) 70ft x 70ft paddocks that I rotate my Ayrshire cow through and her steer (6 mos old). Can I graze the cow with the lambs and the steer with ram? I was hoping that they would provide companionship to one another - if they were compatible together. I am also thinking about running pigs through as well, but I have wooded areas for the pigs as well. One of my main concerns is the ram being alone. I have to keep him separate from the sheep, but I hate the idea of an animal being alone on pasture.

Finally, the lambs are used to sheep netting, so I plan on using that - at least to start with, but may want to go to electric strand. Is 3 strand electric enough to keep most sheep in?

BTW, I live in the very upstate of New York, about 60 miles north of Watertown, NY. The temps in the winter go to -30 F without the wind chill and not infrequently for a week at a time. Thanks for any advice you can give in this venture.

Christopher

I don't think that is too bad if you average it out. The 8 year old is getting to the end but if you can keep her in good shape and get a ewe lamb out of her then all is good. A lot of folks start with 5-6 year old ewes to get ewe lambs out of and then sell the ewes. In my head I figure 100.00 for the 8 year old, 100.00 for each of the 6 year olds, 200.00 for the younger ewe and 300.00 for the ram. Maybe a little steep but not too bad. Try to talk them down to 1100 which would make the ram 200.00 and you are good to go. The ewes (older) would bring that much at the sale barn to the slaughter buyers.

BTW I bought two old ewes (1 around 7 and the other around 6) last year with the intention to try to get ewe lambs and then sell the old ewes. Both had single ewe lambs this year and very nice ones at that, did a great job raising them so they more than paid for themselves and I just think I may try one more year.

CSarsfield · #15 04/23/13, 04:40 PM

Well I bought the sheep. I went and spoke with him and he reiterated some points:

1. First he is only selling them, because he has too many/he is getting old, and the cost of grain hurt him this year. (He also has Sulfolk that went into ketosis after lambing, because he was trying to save on feed.

2. The sheep are obviously not his best animals, he is keeping those, but they are not meat worthy. He is shipping a few ewes to the butcher, that he won't sell to someone.

3. He does not sell any yearling ewes locally that are decent. He goes to Wooster, OH every year and sells them down there at the Tunis auction. He gets between $300-600 per ewe lamb. The other "local" tunis breeder does the same.

Finally, he told me I will get quality lambs from the stock I bought. With those ewes, I will have a good start in the sheep business. I will just need a new ram in two years.

So I am hoping, I will get at least two lambings from each ewe I bought. Also two of the ewes are coming with their 3 week old lambs (cost me another $120 for the two tag along rams). I happy about that, because I will be able to see how they grow and have lamb in the freezer in the fall. YUMM! Thank you for all the help and advice!! I will certainly keep the board updated, and I am sure I will have lots of questions.

Christopher

CSarsfield · #16 04/23/13, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grandma12703

BTW I bought two old ewes (1 around 7 and the other around 6) last year with the intention to try to get ewe lambs and then sell the old ewes. Both had single ewe lambs this year and very nice ones at that, did a great job raising them so they more than paid for themselves and I just think I may try one more year.

I am hoping for the same!!

Thank you for the reply!

Christopher

CSarsfield · #17 04/23/13, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowfaxFarm

Do I think you're getting the flock cheap? no...but I think it is a decent deal if they are what you want.

Yes, unfortunately, or fortunately, if I get into sheep, I am going to start with tunis. I don't need to make money right away, I just need some ewes with good genetics to have a ewe lamb or two (or three would be fine, but not at once) and then I will have my foundation.

krebolj · #18 04/23/13, 04:54 PM

Hopefully it goes well, and hopefully you get ewe lambs from those older girls as replacements

**Ross** · #19 04/23/13, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSarsfield

I will certainly keep the board updated, and I am sure I will have lots of questions.

Christopher

Well best wishes, ....truely meant and offered. And Yes I agree you will be back with questions. Go spend some money on Laura Lawsons Managing Your Ewe and secondly Lamb Questions. A good summer's reading.

grandma12703 · #20 04/24/13, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bergere

You have been lucky. Both DH's and my family have raised pigs, know friends that have tried to run pigs with other stock.... never worked out well.

A few days ago i kept hearing the nigerian doe bawling and I looked out and saw she had jumped on the top of a small shed and into the boars pen. I freaked a little as DH wasn't home and I didn't know what was about to happen. I walked out and watched the boar stare at her for a few moments then go over and lay down in the mud by the hog panel. LOL he isn't to aggressive. Even funnier she used him as a catapole of sorts and took a run landed on him and back over the fence to her kids. I have a sort of funny farm I think.