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  #1  
Old 07/27/08, 10:05 AM
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: the flat land of Illinois
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help! lamb with bottle jaw

first - My hands are completely full with my father in the hospital with terminal cancer and my invalid mother living at the house needing tons of care not to mention my family and daily farm stuff. I've been totally and completely occupied for the last 3 weeks with critical family issues. Be kind.

I posted here about a lamb with scours probably a month ago. Since then, I had a fecal done which showed coccidia and strongella. We treated first with the coccidistat (albon?) and finished that treatment (5 day treatment) 3 days ago. The scours had really slowed or even stopped before we started the coccistat.

DH and I went out and drenched with Ivomec this morning - to discover a 3m ram lamb with bottle jaw. His twin sister is weaker than normal. We drenched 100% of the animals that use that pasture.

Yes, of course we could do better pasture management! We're trying - we invested in an electrical fence system from Premier1 but with all the family health issues we have not had the chance to train the animals to the new fencing issue. I do feel we are on the edge of better management and are trying - but sometimes life gives you a lot to handle at once.

So - please, help me. What should I do to help the lamb with bottle jaw? What should I do for the rest of the ruminants (4 adult sheep, 1 18m wether sheep, 4 lambs, 3 goats). The sheep are border leicester (7/9) and east friesian mix (2/9).

The goats look pretty decent! I watch their eye lids and gums pretty closely and have been using an herbal wormer on them every 2 months. Their coats are shiney and soft and they are lively and vital looking. The sheep are less tame and less easy to handle so this is their first time being wormed since March.

ty
Cathy

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  #2  
Old 07/27/08, 10:29 AM
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Wisconsin
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Sorry to hear the health issues your family is dealing with.

As far as the lamb with bottle jaw, you wormed him for the first time with Ivomec drench this morning ?
Give him injection of vitamin B-complex asap. If it is really bad also give him a shot of Penn.

If not better in the morning repeat.

What wormer did you use last time around ?

I would suggest a different dewormer.

Tramisol or with the wet weather we have had Valbazen (if there is no chance the ewe are pregnant), would be best to also prevent Liver Flukes.

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  #3  
Old 07/27/08, 12:13 PM
 
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Location: the flat land of Illinois
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Deb,
we wormed the lamb with bottle jaw when we bought him, his twin, their mother, and another lamb/ewe pair in April. Wormed with Ivomec.

Ivomec is what our vet recommended - and he, the vet, is a local sheep owner and the same vet your friends Roger & Carolyn use. I trust him.

I'll go and give the bottle jaw lamb and his weaker twin vitb complex.

Never having seen bottle jaw before - what is the difference between bad bottle jaw and not so critical bottle jaw? How can I make the judgement? I'd say that this lamb in question is swollen about 2" and puffy/engorged to the touch. I can easily depress a finger 1/2" - 1" in/on the swelling.

thanks

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  #4  
Old 07/27/08, 07:00 PM
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Never having seen bottle jaw before - what is the difference between bad bottle jaw and not so critical bottle jaw?
ALL bottle jaw is CRITICAL. The fluid you see is matched by fluid you DON'T see in the lungs and heart
And you may "trust " your Vet, but that doesnt mean the Ivomec is working.
Try Tramisole or Cydectin
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  #5  
Old 07/27/08, 08:05 PM
 
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Cathy,

Ditto on what Bearfoot said.

You need to get him turned around ASAP, as with all sheep who show symptoms of anything ailing them.

Deb

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  #6  
Old 07/27/08, 08:22 PM
 
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I gave the b complex to all the lambs, just in case.

I will call the vet in the morn for more direction. I can't say the ivomec is not working if I just gave it this morning....

And yes, I am doing all I can to turn it around now that I am aware of it. And I do appreciate the help and advice. For what it's worth - it was Deb who qualified advice as to whether the bottle jaw was bad or not. I think asking what was bad bottle jaw was the responsible question to ask - not asking would be ignorant.

I checked my original post about a scouring lamb - it was 20 days ago. Considering I've been in the hospital with Dad for 15/20 of those days I feel okay about the state of things. I wish, of course, that the worm load had not gotten so bad but in a crisis, I'll take care of my family over the livestock every day of the week.

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  #7  
Old 07/27/08, 09:08 PM
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The reason some folks are suggesting the ivomec may not be working is because of the resistance many worms are developing to it and other wormers, all around the world. The estimates are that 100 % of South American sheep farms are resistant to at least one and sometimes even to all known wormers, and 80 % of sheep farms in the US are resistant to at least one, and sometimes to all known wormers. By using a wormer your farm is resistant to, you are merely killing off the sensitive worms and leaving the resistant ones to reproduce and run riot through the place.
It's a bad situation that isn't going to get better any time soon. There are no new wormers on the horizon so we have to rely on other husbandry methods now.
We use the FAMACHA method and are having our farm tested for wormer sensitivities. It's expensive-$350.00. But in the long run it will save us money on production losses and wasted worming and will also produce a better, healthier flock for the future.
Best of luck to you.

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  #8  
Old 07/27/08, 10:12 PM
 
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I've successfully used ivomec here a select few times, running before and after fecals. It has been effective. What works and does not work at certain places can be different.

But - I'm starting to think that perhaps it's the new worms that the new sheep brought with them that were resistant to ivomec. Our standard farm strongella here on our place have not been resistant so far. Maybe the new sheep changed all that.

On the other hand, only strongella have ever showed up in fecals till this one - the coccidia were new. You'd think that the new sheep might bring new types of worms rather than ivomec-resistant familiar worms.

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Old 07/27/08, 11:04 PM
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On the other hand, only strongella have ever showed up in fecals till this one - the coccidia were new. You'd think that the new sheep might bring new types of worms rather than ivomec-resistand familiar worms.
That's a large family of worms, but the Barber Pole is most likely the one causing the Bottle Jaw.

Around here Ivomec is about as effective as plain water

Even if Ivomec is working for you NOW, it's a good idea to rotate wormers once a year so you dont BUILD a resistance to it

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles...parasites.html

Good luck
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Old 07/28/08, 08:01 AM
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Respectfully, just because something has always worked in the past, doesn't mean it will continue to always work, especially if you are bringing new animals onto your place. Barber pole worm (haemonchus contortus) is the worst offender, in my opinion.
Looking at it from a purely economic point of view (not from a "pet" point of view) It (haemonchus contortus) results in terrible losses, the least of which is animal death. As our state Ag vet put it to us, "When an unthrifty animal dies from haemonchus, that's the end of the problem for that animal, but it's the unthrifty animals who don't die, who remain unthrifty, who don't gain weight, and have to have money constantly dumped into them for more and more treatment and who will never recoup that investment, that hurt the sheep farmer the most". Those animals also become a reservoir for spreading the parasite on the farm.

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  #11  
Old 07/28/08, 11:08 AM
 
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well, of course when something stops working it fails to work! but till then, it works.

No one is more familiar with what works in my little micro area than our vet who is a sheep keeper. Respectfully, I'll take his professional advice. What works in Ohio or other places is great for Ohio and other places.

I have been relatively prompt and attentive and sought professional advice from a qualified, reputable sheep vet. I've done fecals. I've treated with appropriate meds. I've asked for advice from other owners. I have not been irresponsible. Aaargh.

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  #12  
Old 07/28/08, 11:29 AM
 
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Just wanted to say sorry your having all this trouble. People first......animals second!
All you can do is your best and you are doing that.
Are you guys drowning in rain over there? Its making things hard to keep up with here.
Even the turtles are hiding in the barn! (no idea where it came from no ponds around)
i would go with the vet, since he has sheep you would think he'd know.
Good luck with the sheep and ((huggs for your family)) while you are dealing with this......DEEP BREATHS!! AND ONLY READ THE NICE STUFF

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  #13  
Old 07/28/08, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by cathleenc View Post
well, of course when something stops working it fails to work! but till then, it works.

No one is more familiar with what works in my little micro area than our vet who is a sheep keeper. Respectfully, I'll take his professional advice. What works in Ohio or other places is great for Ohio and other places.

I have been relatively prompt and attentive and sought professional advice from a qualified, reputable sheep vet. I've done fecals. I've treated with appropriate meds. I've asked for advice from other owners. I have not been irresponsible. Aaargh.
I never meant to imply you'd been irresponsible. Forgive me if it sounded that way. We have been fighting the barber pole worm battle ourselves here, and it takes all sorts of weapons in the arsenal to fight the fight against them.

Again...forgive me.
Dona
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Old 07/28/08, 12:38 PM
 
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Dona, thank you. I am super touchy and feel like complete poop that my animals are suffering and my parents are both suffering and I am short on nerves and can't fix the world like I'd love to.

I really appreciate your note and also apologize if my response hit wrong nerves for you.
Cathy

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  #15  
Old 07/31/08, 06:55 PM
 
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Smile

just wondering how it's going?
Hope things are better there!

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Old 07/31/08, 06:57 PM
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Ewwweee!!
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  #17  
Old 07/31/08, 08:36 PM
 
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We just went through this with our flock. A couple of lambs went from "fine" to "Bottle Jaw" in the span of our 3 1/2 day vacation! Rain, heat and humidity make for very bad worm conditions, even when you do the FAMACHA checks and stay on top of things.

You may want to consider using a dewormer your worms haven't seen for a while, just to be on the safe side. My understanding is that Ivomec is the least effective and the "first line" but many barber pole strains are resistant to it. We have never used anything but Ivomec, but when our worm crisis hit, we went to Levamisol right away. The two lambs with bottle jaw were on the mend the next day. We don't plan to continue with the higher powered wormer, but in a life and death situation.... we will use it. (Bottle Jaw IS a life and death situation)

In addition to Levamisol, we added molasses to the lambs' water, gave nutridrench, selenium/e gel, added higher yeast based selenium powder to their mineral mix and increased the lambs' protein. Normally, our sheep are grass fed only, but we used a creep to allow the lambs to get at a mix of lamb grower pellets and soy bean meal. When they get bottle jaw, they need extra protein. Also, the extra protein will help all the lambs cope with the higher worm loads of summer.

One last thing, try to avoid chasing or in any way taxing the lambs while they are afflicted with bottle jaw: they are more vulnerable to sudden heart attack because the blood and muscles don't get enough oxygen.

Whew. That was a long answer! (Sorry.)

Having just gone through this for the first time, I benefitted from help from some really helpful advice from far more knowledgeable shepherds than I and thought I'd pass it on.

Good luck.

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  #18  
Old 07/31/08, 09:38 PM
 
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the lambs are looking very close to normal again! the male twin, the one I noticed when first posting, looked better the next day. His twin, a little ewe lamb who I had known was weak but didn't see the bottle jaw (maybe it developed a day later?) took 2 days longer to loose her swelling. Anyway, all look good.

I'm going to drench them with the garlic/neem oil herbal dewormer I use on the goats 10 days from when I started, and then use a different chemical wormer again 3 weeks from start (most likely levamisol).

My beginners understanding of protein in relation to bottle jaw is that the heavy worm load prevents the sheep from metabolizing/absorbing enough protein - the low protein causes fluids to seep from the blood vessels into body cavities in an attempt to increase/concentrate the protein percentages in the blood - the migration of fluids is what causes the strain on the heart/lungs and the swollen jaw. So - does feeding extra protein really help if they can't metabolize it?

thanks
Cathy

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Old 07/31/08, 10:30 PM
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Our state Ag vet recommends feeding a high protein diet after worming, so we do it.

Glad to hear the little ones are doing so much better!

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Old 08/01/08, 10:44 AM
 
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Good to hear things are getting better!
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