To cull or not to cull that is the question

DanielB · #1 06/07/13, 12:19 PM

I've got one NZ and several Californians. The NZ has litters of 9+ every time. For the Californians on the other hand 6 is a big litter. I've had lots of 2s and 4s.

I just got started in rabbits a year or so ago. And I kept 2 does that were born in Oct of last year. I bred them for the 1st time at 6 months. The first had 2 one live one dead. The other had 5 one live and four dead. Both the live kits were cold so I warmed them up and put them together with the first doe. Neither made it. So I thought well that was just the 1st litter and new moms. So I rebred them both.

The first doe had 1 kit on the wire this morning. I found it just after and it was still very active and fairly warm. I had an older doe kindle so I added this kit to her litter.

So this doe had 1 live and 1 dead (maybe both live if I had found them sooner) and 1 live on the wire. Do I give her another chance or cull her?

I want to get my litter size up but I'm not sure how to do it. It's not the bucks my NZ doe has 9+ no matter which buck I put her with.

At this point I have:

8 Californian does
3 Californian bucks
1 NZ doe

Some of the Californians are good moms in spite of the small litter sizes. The NZ kits grow slower if left with the NZ doe but I always foster a few of her kits to a Californian doe. The ones I foster grow faster than the ones left with their NZ mom. So all I want is the litter size of my NZ and the milk output of the Californian. Is that too much to ask lol

o&itw · #2 06/07/13, 12:48 PM

There is a lot to consider here, so it won't be an easy answer.

I would think that the cross would give you some does that were the best of both worlds. However, if the cross does are having more than one or two poor litters, it is time to cull them. Some does produce better milk than others, but any doe with a litter of eight is not going to fatten kits as fast as a doe with a litter of 4. I would keep your original doe, but if you raise any more does out of her and they don't produce well, maybe you ought to quit saving her crosses. What I would attempt to change as soon as I could, would be my Californians. If you are raising for meat, then a litter of 6 being a "big" litter is not acceptable. I would start looking around for some other California does, and make sure you see the kits come from a big litter. A (non show) Californian doe should average 7 or 8 in a litter.

If expense is not a problem, most breeders give a young doe three tries at having a good little before they cull. I usually only give two, but at this time I have lots of promising does in my young kits to pick from.

Bucks can be a definite factor in litter size, but in your case it sounds like they are throwing good litters in your NZW. However, they may be carrying whatever genes are causing small litters in your Cal does, and that may be the reason your cross does are preforming poorly.

If you are raising for meat, you should always select young does and bucks from a different breeder when they are 5 or 6 weeks old and you can see that they are coming from a large litter. I like my does to deliver around 10. Most does can adequately feed 10, and I can afford it if one gets out of the nest box and freezes before I find it. If one of the other does delivers a few short, at the same time, I can foster over. If I have a large litter (sometimes I have a couple of does that deliver 10 or 11 at the same time so I can't foster) I simply leave the smaller ones in the cage with the doe for an extra week when I wean. They will usually even out.

DanielB · #3 06/07/13, 02:16 PM

I did have a NZ buck but I culled him. He just wasn't aggressive. If the doe resisted at all he would just give up and lay down. But he did breed some of my cali does. The litter size was still small. I just went out and found one of my older cali does had 8 (7 live one dead) . Her history since I've had her:

Sally
10/12/12 - 3 live - Cali buck
12/22/12 - 6 live 2 dead - Cali buck
3/13/13 - 5 live - NZ buck
6/7/13 - 7 live 1 dead - NZ buck then 3 hours later new Cali Buck

o&itw · #4 06/07/13, 09:02 PM

Sorry, I left out an important word in my first post so it may have not been understandable. I would look for a buck and maybe some more does that are still with their mom and she has a litter of 8 or more. Cali does should be having more kits than that, and the buck my be throwing does out of your NZW that don't produce large litters either. The Buck may be good for fertilizing egss well, but might still genetically be contributing to your NZ x Calli does (his offspring) having small litters.

From your experience you might might be inclined to think that Cali does have smaller litters than NZW but that isn't the norm (Show lines may have smaller litters)

Sally would be OK if she didn't lose so many. I sometimes loose a kit or two when they hang on to mom too long and get left out on the wire in very cold weather, but she seems to loose some each time. Do you have any idea why?

Her first time (with 3) is allowable, many first time does have trouble. The 5 she had later might be due to the NZ buck. All in all she would be acceptable if she wasn't losing so many.

DanielB · #5 06/07/13, 10:06 PM

I agree 8 I would be ok with. The one today looked like the abdmon wasn't fully developed ie what should be in wasnt. She's a great mom. She starts nesting a week before she has a litter and pulls so much fur she's almost bald on one side. I'm going to try the new does one more time. Then I think I'll look for new blood if they are still really low.

DanielB · #6 06/09/13, 06:39 AM

Last night when I feeding I noticed the first doe that had 2 one live one dead on the 7th was pulling fur and nesting. Now it's been well over 24 hours since she had the first two. This was at about 6:00PM I went back out to check on her at 10PM and while I was out there she had 3 more live (two seem healthy the 3rd was breathing but otherwise wasn't moving) and 4 more that were dead. So that's 9 total counting the first two.

The first two were born in the morning on the 7th. I'd say around 7AM. Then nothing for 39 hours. Then she had 7 more. I've never had that happen. This is just her 2nd litter and she's about 8 months old now. Have you ever seen that happen? If so did the doe do ok on the next letter?

o&itw · #7 06/09/13, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielB

Last night when I feeding I noticed the first doe that had 2 one live one dead on the 7th was pulling fur and nesting. Now it's been well over 24 hours since she had the first two. This was at about 6:00PM I went back out to check on her at 10PM and while I was out there she had 3 more live (two seem healthy the 3rd was breathing but otherwise wasn't moving) and 4 more that were dead. So that's 9 total counting the first two.

The first two were born in the morning on the 7th. I'd say around 7AM. Then nothing for 39 hours. Then she had 7 more. I've never had that happen. This is just her 2nd litter and she's about 8 months old now. Have you ever seen that happen? If so did the doe do ok on the next letter?

Did you breed her a day or two apart?

When I was first raising rabbits, I was told that if you didn't see the deed done the first breeding to take the doe back to the buck a day or two latter. Because of the way rabbit does produce eggs, it is possible for them to have two groups of kids if bred a day or two apart. I never breed that way anymore, because I had an occurrence like you are describing. After that the doe did fine.

It may have also been a "first time" thing.

I would definitely give her another chance.

We are starting to run into the hot summer months. If you live in the Midwest, or some other hot humid area, the heat during summer is very hard on does. I stop breeding during the summer. On the other hand if you live in a cooler area like the PNW, it won't be a problem. If you stop breeding her till Fall, many does don't breed or have a big litter when they are first re-bred. After they have the first then you should have good litters till the next summer. Considering the lack of fecundity in your Cali does, I would stick with her. She has the potential to be a good doe, and you need to keep breeders.

This is what you are searching for: http://rabbittalk.com/gallery/image_...=2&image_id=41

FamilyFarm1 · #8 06/09/13, 08:25 AM

It was our experience out of those breeds to get 7-9 kits. We allowed for a death rate for first time does. Second time does were allowed one dead, nothing on the wire, and had to have nested before birthing. Anything less than 5/6 more than twice was gone, or anything that had them on the wire other than their first time was gone. We have had as many as 12 born in a litter, in those cases we had a death rate of 2(which we allowed in that case) and the other time we fostered out. We did however cull that doe because we didn't want such large litters, they didn't grow as fast with that many. Rabbits have two sets of egg producing horns, they can be fertilized at different times, causing two litters to develop at once. [/COLOR] My concern would be her feeding two litters at once......

o&itw · #9 06/09/13, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FamilyFarm1

It was our experience out of those breeds to get 7-9 kits. We allowed for a death rate for first time does. Second time does were allowed one dead, nothing on the wire, and had to have nested before birthing. Anything less than 5/6 more than twice was gone, or anything that had them on the wire other than their first time was gone. We have had as many as 12 born in a litter, in those cases we had a death rate of 2(which we allowed in that case) and the other time we fostered out. We did however cull that doe because we didn't want such large litters, they didn't grow as fast with that many. Rabbits have two sets of egg producing horns, they can be fertilized at different times, causing two litters to develop at once. [/COLOR] My concern would be her feeding two litters at once......

FamilyFarm's method what I use when evaluating new does that I have raised. However, I already have 7-9 good does that I have breed out of my own stock. Until you get several good breeders, You have to allow a little more margin. It is obvious that you Cali does aren't cutting the mustard. So your hopes, barring getting rid of the Cali's and buying new rabbits, which may not perform any better, is to try to take advantage of the genetics that you have. Since this doe shows promise, I would stick with her a lot longer as you really don't have much alternative.

She did in fact have a good number of kits when it was all said and done. When I first started with the group of rabbits I have now, which was about 5 years ago. I ran into a similar problem as you. Since I didn't have a lot of alternative because I wanted to keep the genetics of this doe, I kept her for a 4th try. On the forth time she kindled 9, and never kindled lest than ten after that. She was a terrific doe.

In your situation, she is the best hope, and I would consider culling most of your pure Cali does before getting rid of her. If you are in a climate that allows you to continue breeding during the summer, I think she will do well on the next litter. However, If you postpone breeding her again till the Fall, give her two more tries.
When you work your way up till having 6 or 8 well producing does, then you will be able to cull new does much more strictly.

DanielB · #10 06/09/13, 11:30 AM

Thanks for the advice. She was bred three times in 4 hours. I was trying to increase litter size and was hoping having her with the buck more would stimulate more eggs to drop. So I put her with the buck for 30 min and he bred her 2 or 3 times. Then I put her with him again in 2 hours then again 2 hours after that. That was the last she was with a buck.

I only have 3 older does left. But I have 3 at 8 months and 3 more that are 6 months old. I only have 12 cages so I've hit my limit. I'm looking for a way to add more cages I need a few more for grow out. I keep wanting to keep more for breeders I just don't have anywhere else to put them. Not that I need more I just don't know which will turn out to be good and which I'll need to cull.

I have them in a 12 X 16 storage building that's insulated and air conditioned. I'm in NC and it's been in the high 80s a few days but that's it. When it hits the 90s I'll start the A/C. At this point I just run a fan 24/7. The building is in the shade until late evening.

secuono · #11 06/09/13, 12:08 PM

Are you saying Doe #1 has had a very tiny litter both times? Then I would cull her.

In general, many/most first time moms end up neglecting or killing their kits. Second time there should be improvement, if they aren't doing better than the 1st time, I would cull. But if they did improve in some way, then they get a 3rd chance. If they still cannot raise a litter, they get culled.

o&itw · #12 06/10/13, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielB

Thanks for the advice. She was bred three times in 4 hours. I was trying to increase litter size and was hoping having her with the buck more would stimulate more eggs to drop. So I put her with the buck for 30 min and he bred her 2 or 3 times. Then I put her with him again in 2 hours then again 2 hours after that. That was the last she was with a buck.

I only have 3 older does left. But I have 3 at 8 months and 3 more that are 6 months old. I only have 12 cages so I've hit my limit. I'm looking for a way to add more cages I need a few more for grow out. I keep wanting to keep more for breeders I just don't have anywhere else to put them. Not that I need more I just don't know which will turn out to be good and which I'll need to cull.

I have them in a 12 X 16 storage building that's insulated and air conditioned. I'm in NC and it's been in the high 80s a few days but that's it. When it hits the 90s I'll start the A/C. At this point I just run a fan 24/7. The building is in the shade until late evening.

I don't know where you live, but if you don't have too hot of a climate, you need to breed the 6 month and 8 month old does now.

The most important thing is to not get discouraged. Unless one is very lucky, it takes a while to get your stock selected and going. Once you get a buck is throwing litters of 8 or more with one doe, you know that if other (seasoned) does are throwing litters of 5 or 6 each time, the problem is with the doe. If you have a buck that is throwing 8 or more kits with the NZ doe, then keep him. It makes the testing of the does easier. Don't replace him, even if he is poorly conformed until you have a better buck that you can see is doing as well. He may not be the best buck in the world but at least you know he is fertile.

Again, if you get a chance to buy a doe or buck, buy it around 6 or 7 weeks from a breeder that you can see had a mom that raise 8 or more does. This tells you that the mother can both deliver that many kits, and support that many as well. That will enhance the chances that the genetics of the animal you buy are similar.

Each young doe takes time to evaluate. Since that is mostly what you have, it is going to take some time. As you buy or develop more and more good does, the percentage of the does you are testing becomes less and less, and culling them after two or three tries is not as big a problem.

GreenMomma · #13 12/29/13, 10:25 AM

Can I add something that I've found out recently helps a lot in building my herd? When you go look at new rabbits and are looking at that age range for litter size, also weigh them if possible. Take your own scale if you need to.

My first group of rabbits was supposed to be 2 does and a buck. Turned out to be 2 bucks and a doe, lol. I didn't know what I was doing at all, just took whatever rabbits they put in the crate. Now I look at the parents, pick through the litter for the personalities I like and weigh those suckers. That's been the best way for me to improve growth rates and get the litter sizes I like. I like to buy rabbits at 8 weeks so they're at least 3.5 pounds.

Also, I know it's not feasible for everyone's operation, but one thing I've found helpful is "over rabbiting" my rabbitry. It's a lot to spend in time and feed, but once I got the routine down for care, I gave myself a nice selection to choose from. All we really need is 3 or 4 good does and a buck, but I have 7 does right now and will probably be shopping a little from the litters that I have right now if they're growth is good. And we have 2 bucks but I'll be keeping a replacement soon for our NZ buck.

For me it's been a great education just in the experimentation with different breeds, pure and crosses, with different doe/buck combinations and finding which does are my favorites. It gives me a lot more freedom to choose the great ones for breeders and cull the rest. I don't care for the feeling of being pinned in and having to breed does that I'm not excited about... so if you have the cage space and can swing it, you might consider just keeping your favorites and finding new does. Get too many this time so you have more freedom to just keep the ones that you can't wait to breed

I know that won't be everyone's advice and it seems a little wasteful or like a lot of work, but I can tell you that I found a few great little does that I bartered for and after starting off rabbit breeding with a lot of trials, small litter sizes and low growth weights, I'm finally starting to get into a rythym and I'm finally super excited to see what kind of litters I can grow this year... With a feeling like I can "shop" my rabbitry to REALLY keep the best and eat the rest.