Want to try something...is this possible and how do I do it?

Linsay2231 · #1 07/29/12, 01:08 PM

I have Standard Satins and Standard Rex rabbits. I want to try and create a rabbit with the plush fur of the rex and the sheen of the Satin. Is this even possible and how many generations do you suppose it would take? I think it would be so pretty!

mygoat · #2 07/29/12, 03:34 PM

Two generations, if you're lucky.

Both Satin and Rex are simple recessives. First generation cross between a rex and a satin would result in a litter that is entirely normal coated, but all carry satin and rex.

If you crossed two siblings from that litter, the offspring would be a 9:3:3:1. 9 normals, 3 satins, 3 rexes, and 1 satin rex. This gets funky because we're looking at two traits at the same time. I know it's not the right letters for the genetics, but let's say Satin fur is represented with the letter S. A satin would be genetically "ss". If it had "SS" or "Ss", it would be 'normal' coat. Same with rex - which we'll designate with the letter R.

So, parent stock are a satin (ssRR) with a rex (SSrr).

F1 are SsRr. no other options, because the satin parent can ONLY pass on sR, and the rex can only pass on Sr. All normal coated carriers of both satin and Rex.

The F1's can pass 4 different allele combinations to their offspring.. They can pass on SR, Sr, sR, and sr.

Make a big punnet squre, and your end result is 9:3:3:1.

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That being said, the Satins are the result of a clear hair shaft cuticle on their guard hairs. Rexes are designed to have minimal short guard hairs, so I'm not sure what difference the satin modification would make, to be honest. I'm not sure you'd be able to tell which ones are satins and which one's arent.

akane · #3 07/29/12, 06:09 PM

I'm not sure what that would look like.... By the numbers you should be able to do it in 2 generations but you may have to repeat the breeding several times or breed all doe offspring you get by one of the buck offspring before you see the genes line up. Also a good idea to use 2 does of one type and 1 buck of the other type so you can cross half siblings and make a solid breeding group instead of ending up extremely inbred within a few generations.

lonelyfarmgirl · #4 07/29/12, 07:01 PM

mygoat said it right, however, a punnett square calculation doesnt mean you will get 4 babies in that ratio. Thats just an example of what you COULD get. would be interesting to see what a 'satinized rex' looks like. hmmmm.....

Narshalla · #5 07/29/12, 10:42 PM

Yes, it could be cone, and I wouldn't mind one of the babies as a pet.

I'm wondering, though -- what are you planning on doing with the ones who don't meet your standards? Culling them or selling them as pets?

Just something to think about before you get started.

BTW, I didn't go back and check your past post to see if you've ever processed rabbits cor human or animal food, or sold them as pets, or whatever. You may already have thought of this yourself!

Linsay2231 · #6 07/30/12, 10:30 AM

Thanks everyone! I think I understand. I bred a Satin Buck to a Rex doe, and a Rex buck to a Satin doe yesterday. My plan is to keep a buck from each litter and a few does from each litter to see if I can succeed in breeding them and getting satin rexs without any inbreeding :-)

Narshalla- We have had rabbits since I was a kid....We will eat some, the dogs will eat some, the extended family will eat some, and some will be sold as pets. :-)

RRT Harlies · #7 07/30/12, 06:53 PM

I've never seen a rabbit with both satin and rex going on, but I've heard that it is not nearly as pleasant looking as one would think. Short fur, very thin and not plushy like a rex would be. I've heard it described as being gross looking before, lol.

lonelyfarmgirl · #8 07/30/12, 07:17 PM

Dont be overly concerned about not inbreeding. It is common in rabbits and will help tighten up your line.

akane · #9 07/31/12, 11:22 AM

Some inbreeding is common but if you only breed 1 pair when trying to create something new you will quickly end up too heavily inbred to cull out the bad traits. There has to be some genetic diversity to be able to select good traits and cull bad ones. If you have to work on bringing back the thickness of the rex coat having options would be good.

mygoat · #10 07/31/12, 12:41 PM

Yes, the 9:3:3:1 ratio is not how every litter will turn out - that's just statistics that says what the average litter - over multiple replicates - will look like. Essentially in the F2, 1 out of every 16 kits will be rex AND satin at the same time. It's going to take some doing to get them.

I think the problem is going to be being sure that the ones you *think* are rex+satin actually ARE. I'd to test breedings of the individuals that you think are both rex and satin. For example, say you get a buck you think is both rex and satin. Breed him to a purebred rex doe and a purebred satin doe. The entire litter out of the purebred rex doe should be rex furred ONLY. The entire litter out of the satin doe should be satin furred ONLY.

That would be the ONLY way to tell for *sure*, IMO, because of the satin and rex gene messing with the guard hairs at the same time - rex guard hairs being plushy and short, whereas satin modifies the hair shaft on the guard hairs... I'm not convinced a difference will be outwardly visible.

Linsay2231 · #11 07/31/12, 01:33 PM

Once I have rex/satin rabbits with the fur I am looking for, will all the babies I get out of them have the rex hair with the satin shine? I hope there will be a noticeable difference!

akane · #12 07/31/12, 04:30 PM

Anything rex furred bred to anything rex furred will be all rex and the same with satin so if you have both genes showing in both rabbits you will only get offspring with both coat types

Macybaby · #13 07/31/12, 07:39 PM

I've done it - not with any purpose, just had a rex buck and a satin doe. So this is just what I ended up with without any plan or selection based on traits other than color and size.

Second generation, every kit with rex fur ended up growing at a slower rate and not getting as big as the non-rex fur siblings. And I had a few kits that had really curly hair as kits, and I thought they might be rex, but as older they had rather "icky" coats -short like the rex, but not with the plushness, but not with the sheen of the satin either. Since they were for the table, I didn't worry about it.

I'm on the third generation now, I had saved one of the rex furred bucks, and he is the sire of my current breeders, but he never put on much size so I only used him for a few litters and then culled him.

I did the math. The two I have now - the buck is out of a nice rex furred rabbit so he should carry that gene. He is 50% rex, 38% satin and 12% NZ. The doe is out of the same rex furred buck and a satin, and is 63% satin 25% rex and 12% NZ.

They have two litters so far, and I'm ashamed to say I've not had much time to notice what type of coats they have. One litter is 7 weeks old the other is 3 so I should go take a good look at them. They are very pretty and just starting to get brave enough not to run and hide when I toss in supper.

I also have a Rex/NZ doe, but she's turning out as goofy as her grandma and Mom, and her kits are skittish/flighty things compared to the others, so I'm not planning on saving any of that line.

lasergrl · #14 08/09/12, 10:28 PM

On another breeder list Im on someone has done it. The problem is that a satin rex will only look like a rex, rex fur cant express the satin coat. So in short it would be a waste of time because you will geticky coated rex.

SephysManda · #15 08/14/12, 06:19 AM

It's very possible to get them. They seem to be most common in Indonesia.

This person breeds them: Rumah Rabbitz | Facebook

You can find pictures here: Rabbitcolors

I want to breed them myself as they are very pretty and both Rex and Satin are my favorite breeds. If you look hard enough on Google, you can find lots more pictures.

Linsay2231 · #16 08/14/12, 09:11 AM

oooooh....this is what I want to recreate...beautiful!!!

Reauxman · #17 08/14/12, 12:21 PM

The problem you'll end up with is getting consistency. Never saw one, not sure I want to.

Rex fur is a smaller diameter hair shaft that is extremely dense due to the smaller diameter. It must have some coarseness to it to hold it's shape, however coarse is by far not the intent.

Satin fur is a hollow, translucent hairshaft that is thicker than the rex with a good density and lenth. The issue is that satin texture(correct satin) is extremely soft(and should be).

Mixing lengths, textures and densities is only asking for issues.

(BtW, not sure what is going on with the animal pictured, but it appears that only the orange is satinized. That white is not satin, nor is most of the black. It's also appears there is both orange and fawn in there. I don't think it is a shaded tri, although with that view, it's tough to tell for sure)

SephysManda · #18 08/14/12, 09:38 PM

I asked the breeder from Indonesia about his Rex Satins this: "Hi, just wanted to ask you how you bred the Rex Satins or if you know a breeder you can direct me to. I want to breed them myself (I'm in the US and have both Satins and Rex). How many generations does it take to get the Rex Satin coat? What does the fur feel like?"

Their response was: "Hi Manda.
You may contact Mr. Bram Brahmantiyo. You can find him on Facebook. He's been doing some research and joined in a pioneer researcher team who breed the Rex Satins. I've been told that it took more than 7 generations to get a stabile breed of Rex Satins. They are mix breed of Rex, Satin, and New Zealand rabbits. The rabbit I have is one of the generations made from their Rex Satin project. The fur feels exactly like Rex (soft, thick, and fluffy) and it glows like Satin. The body follows the form & weight of Rex. In ARBA Contests in Indonesia the Rex Satins are being grouped as "Local Breed" and it follows the Standard of Perfection of Rex."

I'm definitely contacting the other breeder

I pretty much figured it would be more then 3-4 generations considering you have take into account the combining of different furs. I want to get my hands on a Rex Satin

Linsay2231 · #19 08/15/12, 09:05 AM

SephysManda...cool! My F1 are due in about 10 days....I hate the waiting process LOL. Where are you located? I have really nice Rex and really nice Satin so I am crossing my fingers that will help me in the long run. Maybe we can trade some stock later on down the line.

SephysManda · #20 08/15/12, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linsay2231

SephysManda...cool! My F1 are due in about 10 days....I hate the waiting process LOL. Where are you located? I have really nice Rex and really nice Satin so I am crossing my fingers that will help me in the long run. Maybe we can trade some stock later on down the line.

I'm in Washington State

I currently have a Rex doe bred to both a Satin buck and a Rex buck so may get some satin and rex fur carriers.

dlskidmore · #21 08/15/12, 04:54 PM

I know more about genetics than rabbits, basing my math on myGoat's work above.

You could do test mating to help select your F2s you want to produce more F3 litters from. This will reduce the number of culls in future generations.

You want to be able to classify all your critters:
ssrr - Satin Rex
ssRr- Satin known to be carrying for Rex
Ssrr - Rex known to be carrying for Satin
SsRr - known to be carrying for both
Test mate or cull everything else

All F1s fall into SsRr, select for other positive traits. Produce as many F1s as is reasonable and cull heavily for faults other than Satin/Rex.

F2s can be a variety of combinations that will require test mating to see if they fall into one of the above categories.
Satin Rex - (ssrr) no test mating needed.
Satin - test mate with pure Rex
If 100% of the litter is normal, cull apparent ssRR and entire litter
If some of litter is Rex, Rex kits are Ssrr, normal kits are SrRr
Rex - test mate with pure Satin
If 100% of the liter is normal, cull apparent SSrr and entire litter
If some of litter is Satin, Satin kits are ssRr, normal kits are SrRr
Normal - cull, you're better off with a new F1.

Using purebreds for the test mating will make it easier to clearly classify the kits. You won't need any more purebreds after your breeding pool is fully classified and large enough for genetic diversity.

If you have a particularly nice animal that the test mating didn't go your way, try a second time and see if the odds just didn't work out in your favor. It is possible to carry for a gene and just happen to not pass it down to any member of a particular litter. The more kits in the test litters the less likely that is to be so. You only need one offspring expressing the gene to prove the parent carries the gene

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Once you've narrowed your pool with the above test mating, you can just keep going selecting for other more complex traits first and then after the breeding pool is big enough select for Satin Rex only. You can get Satin Rex out of all these, you're not a slave to keeping every Satin Rex if the animal has some other flaw.
Preferred breedings:
ssrr x ssrr -> 100% Satin Rex
ssrr x ssRr -> 50% Satin Rex, 50% SSRr Satin
ssrr x Ssrr -> 50% Satin Rex, 50% SsRR Rex
ssRr x Ssrr -> 50% Satin Rex, 25% Satin ssRr, and 25% Rex Ssrr.

Don't breed hybrid to hybrid (Satin to Satin or Rex to Rex), or you could reintroduce double recessives and have to test mate the offspring and cull some of them.

Use this combo to introduce new F1s when expanding your breeding pool, as all offspring are usable without test mating, although you might cull the SsRr just because they're so easy to get more of with fresh gene contributions:
ssrr x SsRr -> 25% Satin Rex, 25% Satin ssRr, 25% Rex Ssrr, 25% normal SsRr.

I would have so much fun running the numbers for someone doing this... This is way easier than Great Dane Harlequin genetics. Are there any rabbit world politics forbidding this type of breeding?