Thoughts, please! *long-winded... of course!* :)

[SilverFlame819]

After writing all this babbling out, I figured I'd go through and bold the ideas/questions I'd really like opinions on so you don't ACTUALLY have to read all my thoughts... *lol*

So I'm trying to figure out when I get rabbits again which direction I'd like to go in. Previously I raised Jersey Woolies and Netherlands, and my mother raised Mini-Rexes, so I had lots of hands-on experience with those too. I've also raised NZW's for the meat trade, and mutts for the meat trade.

I am set for sure on Jerseys, but the rest is up in the air.

I would like to raise meat rabbits for my dogs. First off, let me just say that it's a bizarre concept, since I'm a vegetarian. I HAVE raised meat rabbits in the past (and even ran a huge meat production rabbitry for someone) so it's not such a stretch. I do not eat meat because I do not think something should have to die for me to live, but I do keep animals who are not herbivores, and I am not one of those crazy people who think that they should be forced into vegetarianism, but I am bothered by the fact that even their high quality dog food has animal in it that has had a poor life, and probably even worse death. So I am thinking about raising the meat that they eat. I know that rabbits are a staple in wild canine diets, but I also know that they have a higher protein content, and am unsure if that's good or bad for a dog. If anyone knows of any reason rabbits cannot be used for domestic dog meat, please let me know!

Since I won't be raising commercially, I don't have to go with boring white rabbits, and don't plan to. My favorite patterns of rabbits are brokens. Lately I really find myself considering getting into Mini-Rexes, since I'm loving all the tri colors that people are now breeding, and am wondering if I should, instead of considering Mini Rexes and meat rabbits, combine the two, and go for standard Rexes and use show culls for the dogs. I really am not fond of the larger rabbits though, and my concern there would be that all the larger rabbits being kept for show would eat into the bank account a lot faster than Minis for show, and a few meats on the side.

What breeds are there that are decent quality meat breeds (fine boned, NZW/Rex size) that come in broken patterns? I'm well-versed in broken pattern breeding, so I figure I could keep the few bucks I'd have solids, but in interesting colors... (Mainly I figure I'm going to be feeding them and handling them, so I might as well have something that will suit the purpose well, but be something pleasing to look at as well)...

How popular are the Tris in Mini-Rexes? Are there plenty of breeders out there for me to choose from? Do full-size Rexes come in the same Tri colors? I'm seeing some really ugly Mini-Rexes online, with angular strange heads and ears that fold, with breeders claiming they're great specimens, and well... I'd really like to have a choice!

Obviously Netherlands wouldn't make much of a meal for a dog, and neither would Jerseys, but those are my two favorite breeds. I do prefer broken coloring in Mini Rexes though. It's crisp and clean, not like in the brokens that Dwarf breeders are breeding these days... So that's why I'm considering getting into them.

Also, since I've never processed a rabbit for myself, those of you who eat meat could probably clue me in... I know they make turkey burger, but have never seen chicken burger. In my mind, a butchered chicken is roughly the same size as a rabbit... Is it possible to make "bunny burger"? Obviously it would be the best for me to have a rabbit come back from the processor ground up in a tube, like they do with turkey burger, so I could easily measure it out for the dogs, but not sure if that is anywhere in the realm of possibility. I'm not freaky and squeamish about meat. I would have no problem cooking it up for the dogs, but am just dreaming aloud as to what would be easiest for me to both measure for the dogs, and handle myself, with the smallest amount of work.

So yeah... This post was a big mish-mash of thought. But that's pretty much how it is in my head right now. Rabbit is not the only meat I'm considering for the dogs, but I do enjoy raising rabbits, and think that it would be a good, healthy meat for them, so it would be a good starting point...

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Angela

[trinityoaks]

I can't help with the others, but the answer to your first questions is that domestic rabbits can be and are used for dog food.

Oh, and for the last question, it's possible to make "bunny burger", but don't know exactly how you'd go about it for dogs. For humans, you'd want to add some fat (bacon, lard, etc.) to the mix.

[KSALguy]

rabbits are great for a RAW diet but they will need other meats added in as rabbit is too low in fat to be used as a SOLE meat source, chicken leg quarters are a good source, beef hard is good too,

[SilverFlame819]

Trinity - I'm not really caring about making the rabbit into actual burger patties, per se, but more thinking if it came ground up, it would be easier to measure, or brown up like hamburger if I wanted to, for their food, without having to cook it up on the bone, and then strip the meat off for the dogs.

KSAL - So rabbits are great for raw, but what about cooked? Obviously chicken meat can only be used cooked if it's de-boned, but I don't know about rabbit bones splintering (or pulling meat from the bone after cooking).

Once I switch the dogs over to eating home-grown meat, they will also be getting a premium human-grade vegetarian kibble as well, so they will be getting their other nutrients from vegetables and grains there. Other animals I'll be raising that will be going into the dogs' bowls are chicken, sheep, and possibly goat and turkey, so they will have a variety (although not containing beef or pork - which isn't part of their current food anyway).


Digging through ARBA's website, looks like the only breeds offered in broken variety other than Rex and NZ in the 10-12lb size range (and more meat-style, not arched) are French Lop, Satin, and English Lop. English Lop are out of the question. Anyone know if French Lop are big-boned like the Minis and Hollands?

Basically thinking at this point my meat breeders are going to be mutts, but would like to start out with a good baseline... No point in breeding in French Lops for fun colors if they're going to make terrible meat rabbits.

[KSALguy]

RAW means ALL meat is fed raw, no cooking at all, raw chicken with plenty of meat on the bone is not going to hurt the dog, watch how a dog eats, they chew it up all the way because most dogs unless they are HUGE cant swallow a whole chicken leg quarter, they chew thru the meat and the bone is crushed up and does not cause a problem,

the reason people have the idea that ALL chicken bones are bad for dogs is that when you feed a dog JUST the bone especially if its cooked they will try and scarf it down and it will splinter in strainge ways, once you cook a bone it compleatly chainges the way the bone breaks,

you WANT bone in a raw diet, it cleans the teath and helps ballance the diet, also dogs do not need vegitarian anything, they are made to live on meat, the reason KIBBLE has all that plant base stuff in it is it keeps better on the shelf and there is no way the same nutrients in meat could be put into a processed kibble form, dogs may eat grass in the yard but thats more for upset stomach for fiber to push something out one way or the other, also meat and kibble digest differint and you cant feed them at the same time, the stomach acid requierment is differint, meat digests faster, if you feed both at the same time your asking for trouble,


veggies can be fed as a treat to some dogs that like it but they dont need it, Veggies to dogs is like sugary processed candy to us, they may like it but they dont need it,

and as to your breed question any rabbit is going to be made of meat, and if your just feeding to dogs it wont matter the meat to bone ratio or how large the rabbit is, get what makes you happy while they are alive because they will ALL make the dogs happy once they are dead,

ALSO before i get sidetracked again, you can leave the guts in a rabbit from time to time, feed it to the dog OUTSIDE and fresh and the gut contence has other vitamins/minerals/etc that a Carnivore can utilize,

[ladysown]

just how are you planning on serving these rabbits to your dogs?

Are you going to just give them a rabbit and say here...go to it?
OR are you planning on skinning and deboning them? (and if so why?)
OR are you planning on cooking them (and if so why?)

IF you are planning on just giving them a fully furred rabbit go with the shortest haired rabbit you can. Extra fur and wool is not good long term for them. BUT eating the entire rabbit is what is best for them...that's kinda what they'd do in the wild right?

If you are planning in skinning them and letting the dogs have the carcass then any breed will work. Afterall, all rabbits are meat.

overall mixing kibble and meat not considered the best thing to do. It's best to go all one way or the other...but dogs are meat eaters... putting them on a vegetarian diet would not be the best thing to do with them.

what size are your dogs? That might help you determine what breed you want to raise.

A smaller meat breed you might consider are the harlequins. They come in bicolours. Mini rex will work excellently for your purposes. I know that my pet food clients are quite happy with the stock they get from me (mostly mini rex and harlequin).

[Honorine]

If you breed only false dwarf Mini Rex( no dwarfing gene) I think that will be what your looking for. They'll be a smaller rabbit, mature at 5-6 lbs, and you can do brokens easily. Havanas also come in broken, and they are a slower growing but compact rabbit, if I was trying to do what you are I'd get a Florida White buck and breed to broken Havana does, you'd get hybrid vigor, more meat from the FW and the broken pattern, and solids as well. Quite frankly Florida Whites would be perfect for what your doing, they bulk up fast, and many people feel that a REW rabbit is easier to butcher, less of a cute factor. Tricolors in MR are a mixed bag, not really popular and not as worked on as the other varieties, hence the long heads and ugly ones your seeing. Its not an easy color to breed, not a lot of people have them. Their a challenge, and they have to compete in the broken class against broken castors and blacks and they simply aren't good enough to beat the more popular colors. Yes there are tricolor full size Rex.

We have 6 dogs...they are fed kibble mostly, but about once a week they get raw rabbit. I have one dog that REFUSES to eat raw (she'll just not eat until she makes herself sick). My main breed is NZW. Yes, they are boring to look at, but other than a Californian, you can't beat their growing abilities (best bang for your buck). I also have some crossbreeds to have something pretty to look at. Don't kill yourself looking for a broken pattern rabbit....I "made" my own broken NZ by breeding a broken Mini Lop into the mix. Take one of those 50/50 broken crosses and breed back to a NZ. Over time you get a broken NZ.

FYI: for a lab-sized dog, you'll need about 1 fryer per day to feed it totally raw.

To cook rabbit, it's a pain to separate the bones from the meat. Instead, try pressure cooking bones and all until its a mush.

[Devoville]

How to raw feed your dog is a complicated issue and needs to be answered on a raw forum not here. There is a huge difference in opinion on that for sure.There seem to be 3 camps on that and most are vehemently opposed to each other! Secondly there is no reason you can't raise your Mini Rex and use the culls for food or to just actually breed litters for that purpose. You will get false dwarfs and non showables no matter how good the parents are and feeding those to your dogs is a really good idea! It frees up space, covers the cost of dog food and you don't have to deal with pet buyers lol. Lastly, because you seem to mostly want animals for meat I am not sure why colour should come into it? Colour should come last in criteria for any purpose! Even for pet purposes you could have the most striking colour, but if that animal is nasty or anti social it won't make a good pet! As for meat I find it is far better to just raise "boring" white or uniform coloured litters because it is way harder to identify with individuals in that litter and become attached to them! It just seems a little less personal if you know what I mean?

[Wisconsin Ann]

You might consider French Angora. You get fiber (which you can spin or sell) AND they are large meat rabbits. I have a doe who weighs 10 lbs. and she's NOT fat. The French Angora is actually a MEAT breed in France. (as well as fiber).

There are a couple of people in my area who raise rabbits for meat (one raises angoras, another raises dutch) who feed their dogs with the extra rabbits. They both just kill the rabbit, then toss the whole thing to the dogs. Dogs take care of the rest.

Now..is that a normal RAW feeding? No. But it works for these folks. Bunny grinds up really well, and I understand you can do bones and all. Stuffed into bags holding 1lb each and you're set. Toss them in the freezer if you do a bunch at a time. (just remember to label as DOG FOOD)

check out one of the many RAW sites on the web for info about what, and how much to feed. Rabbit is super low in fat, high in protein, so you need to figure that into your equations.

[cowbelle]

You can find good sized electric grinders on ebay (as well as other places) - you can grind up the whole rabbit if you want to. The dogs will eat the bones whole if you don't. And just for the record, I've been feeding kibble and raw meat together for 20 years -to a whole kennel full of working dogs (17 at full house) and never had a problem. My oldest is about to be 16 and is still loping around, looking for stock to work - he's deaf, but sleek and energetic. His sister is 13 and the same - running and playing like a much younger dog. These have always gotten raw meat and bones every day - I've talked the local hunters into bringing me their trimmings during hunting season and I fill two freezers with it all.

[SilverFlame819]

Originally Posted by KSALguy

RAW means ALL meat is fed raw, no cooking at all, raw chicken with plenty of meat on the bone is not going to hurt the dog, watch how a dog eats, they chew it up all the way because most dogs unless they are HUGE cant swallow a whole chicken leg quarter, they chew thru the meat and the bone is crushed up and does not cause a problem,

also meat and kibble digest differint and you cant feed them at the same time, the stomach acid requierment is differint, meat digests faster, if you feed both at the same time your asking for trouble

I understand the BARF diet, my question was mostly asking for clarification on what you said. You said that rabbit is good for a RAW diet. I was asking if you were saying that it therefore is NOT good if I want to feed it to my dogs cooked. I never said HOW I planned to feed it, just that I wanted to feed it...

I know several people who feed their dogs kibble with meat added in. In fact, I've done it a lot in the past with my own dogs. My dogs currently eat a premium human-grade dog food with wet food mixed into their morning meals just for variety, but I assume the meat in the cans is cooked. So what is the difference between feeding cooked meat with their kibble and raw meat? Is there a difference?

I do disagree with your statement that dogs are carnivores and do not need any grains or vegetables. Wolves are known to eat both in the wild. Dogs are classified as omnivores, not carnivores. Yes, the meat is the most important part of their diet, and perhaps wild canines only eat grains and such when they're very hungry and prey is scarce, but for the time being, I plan to keep grain in their diet along with fruits, vegetables, and very occasional dairy. No, I don't mean a bowl full of milk and corn.

Originally Posted by ladysown

Are you going to just give them a rabbit and say here...go to it?
OR are you planning on skinning and deboning them? (and if so why?)
OR are you planning on cooking them (and if so why?)

overall mixing kibble and meat not considered the best thing to do. It's best to go all one way or the other...but dogs are meat eaters... putting them on a vegetarian diet would not be the best thing to do with them.

what size are your dogs? That might help you determine what breed you want to raise.

How I feed would depend on how I can get the animal processed (hence the question about bunny burger). I would prefer to feed the meat cooked. It mixes into food easier that way, and would be easier for me to measure how much they are getting daily. Raw would be easiest for me to be able to measure if it was in some sort of ground up/meal form. I understand that the bones are healthy for the dog and good for their teeth, I'm just thinking in terms of what would be easiest for me to to blend into their food. I don't plan to put them on a vegetarian diet. Currently they have a kibble with meat in it. My only concern is that I know the quality of life the meat in their kibble had when alive, so I'd like to switch to a vegetarian kibble and add in my OWN meat. What is the difference between buying kibble with meat already in it, and buying veggie kibble and adding meat? I wouldn't think there would be one, unless the meat I was feeding was raw, unlike the cooked meat in the kibble. Since I won't be killing the animals myself, tossing a fully furred and complete bunny to them is not an option, nor would I do so even if I was processing at home. I know there are many thoughts on dogs getting "bloodthirsty", and I'm not of the school of thought that thinks my dogs would. But I also don't think it would be smart to throw them entire rabbits and expect them to not view the rabbitry as a buffet (whether or not they would try to attack my rabbits).

My dogs are Border Collies.

Originally Posted by Lyndseyrk

they are fed kibble mostly, but about once a week they get raw rabbit.

Don't kill yourself looking for a broken pattern rabbit....I "made" my own broken NZ by breeding a broken Mini Lop into the mix. Take one of those 50/50 broken crosses and breed back to a NZ. Over time you get a broken NZ.

To cook rabbit, it's a pain to separate the bones from the meat. Instead, try pressure cooking bones and all until its a mush.

So your dogs get kibble and raw and do fine on it? "Making my own" is what I think I'll probably end up doing for the breed if I can't figure out exactly what I'd like to do breed-wise. Interesting tip on the pressure cooker, thanks! That could be a definite option if I can't get it pre-burgerized.

Originally Posted by Devoville

How to raw feed your dog is a complicated issue and needs to be answered on a raw forum not here.

Lastly, because you seem to mostly want animals for meat I am not sure why colour should come into it? Colour should come last in criteria for any purpose!

As for meat I find it is far better to just raise "boring" white or uniform coloured litters because it is way harder to identify with individuals in that litter and become attached to them! It just seems a little less personal if you know what I mean?

Oh, I know the raw food issue well. People get a little crazy when you mention dog food! I wasn't trying to start a debate, just was curious if anyone had a reason I could NOT feed rabbit to my dogs. Color comes into it because they're going to be taking up space in my rabbitry, and I'd like somehting pleasing to the eye. I do recognize the sort of "conflict of interest" in making them cute if they're going to be dinner... This is why I was debating about getting a purebred/papered breed, so that if they popped out something I really loved, I could keep it as a show rabbit. That then goes back to the "what about showing a large variety and just using culls?" train of thought.

Originally Posted by Wisconsin Ann

You might consider French Angora. You get fiber (which you can spin or sell) AND they are large meat rabbits. I have a doe who weighs 10 lbs. and she's NOT fat. The French Angora is actually a MEAT breed in France. (as well as fiber).

Bunny grinds up really well, and I understand you can do bones and all. Stuffed into bags holding 1lb each and you're set. Toss them in the freezer if you do a bunch at a time. (just remember to label as DOG FOOD)

I did actually consider the French Angoras, but was wondering if I really wanted to deal with fiber animals as meat brooders (brushing, trimming stomach hair before kindling, etc)... Especially when I plan to be breeding Jerseys for show... That's a lot of bunnies to brush!

If bunny grinds up well, that is a definite option for me too. Then they could get raw (+bones) and it would mix well into kibble... With KSAL's comment though about the acids, I may have to brave a raw food message board to get thoughts and opinions about mixing raw meat with dry kibble... If the problem with mixing is simply that the meat is raw and should be cooked to mix with kibble, I could easily cook it up into a stew mush... Wouldn't have a problem labeling the rabbit as dog food, since I'm the only one cooking at my house, and I'm a vegetarian anyway.

Originally Posted by cowbelle

You can find good sized electric grinders on ebay (as well as other places) - you can grind up the whole rabbit if you want to. The dogs will eat the bones whole if you don't. And just for the record, I've been feeding kibble and raw meat together for 20 years -to a whole kennel full of working dogs (17 at full house) and never had a problem.

YAY, tons of options, it seems! You guys have definitely given me a bunch to think about!! Thanks!