Decisions, decisions! Please help me decide!

[rabbithappy]

Hi Everybody,
Since we've had such a hard winter this year, I am thinking of a possible change before next winter or even possibly summer. Here's the deal: Right now, my rabbits are in outdoor hutches. When its very cold & / or windy, we put a large tarp over them. Plus, each cage has a box with hay in the bottom for them to crawl into. Despite all my precautions, I still lost two 6 week old bunnies to pneumonia. I didn't realize anything was amiss until they were on their last legs. We have a 12 x 20 storage building out back & I was thinking that if I got stackable cages, I could put the rabbits in the storage building during times of extreeme weather. There is a window air conditioner in the building, so I could avoid the chance of heat stroke in extreeme heat as well. Here in Arkansas, it can get as high as 105 at time, plus humidity. On the downside is the price. The best price I found so far is from Bass. It will cost me $559.70 ( including shipping ) for two 3 cage tall stackable cages ( 6 cages in all ). This includes urine guards & ABS pans. The cages would be 36" x 30". I thought of building the cages myself & ordering the other stuff ( urine guards, pans, stackable leg kits, ect ) to save money. Would this save me enough to make it worthwile? Are the cages hard to make? On the other hand, I'm wondering if its just plain crazy to spend the money for indoor cages when I have good outdoor hutches. It would take alot of rabbit sales to recoup $559, know what I mean? But it would make choring in the winter SO much nicer! Plus, I wouldn't have to worry about hot weather sterility. If I went ahead with this, my plan would be to have them in the building during the winter & hot part of summer, outdoors in their hutches the other months. What do you think? Would it be worth the trouble & expense for you? I'd appreciate anyone's input.

[rabbithappy]

I just saw the stackable cages on the Klubertanz site & it looks like they have stackable cages with the plastic trays & urine guards for quite a bit cheaper than Bass, but I will have to call them to see what the shipping rates are. Has anyone bought the stackable cages from either Bass or Klubertanz? If so, are they well made & are you happy with them? Another plus with these indoor cages is, NO WOOD! Its so hard to clean the wood frame of my outdoor hutches! But on the downside, it would be alot more work having to empty the pans. Please, help me decide!

[homesteadr]

You can buy cage wire and J clips and build your own cages for about $20 each.

[Pat Lamar]

Well, I'm a bit confused... you are in Arkansas and have trouble with winter losses??? I've raised rabbits in extreme cold in Washington state and upstate NY in outdoor hutches and never lost a one from the cold. Seems to me you need a hardier strain of rabbits and/or re-examine your management system. Pneumonia can be a complication of other factors, such as Pasteurella multocida, too.

As for stackable cages, if you can locate an upcoming local or nearby rabbit show, they almost always have equipment vendors with cage condos on hand to sell at the shows. Saves a lot on the shipping, too.

Pat Lamar

[rabbithappy]

Well, I must say that this winter has been unusally cold for here. When I lost the 2 bunnies, it had been in the teens & single digits for about 10 days. We almost never see that here. Then, late last week, we got another cold blast & with it came 11 inches of snow! Most years, our winters are pretty mild. Sometimes dipping below freezing, but not often or for very long. About the Pasturella, I wondered about that, although I've had no sneezing or nasal discharge with any of the rabbits. I will be culling the mom & the rest of the litter this weekend though. I don't need rabbits with compromised immune systems. The bunnies that I lost, suddenly stopped eating, were weak & lost weight. The mom started sounding like a percolator. She may have had Pasturella that was dormant & this outbreak was caused by the stress of the cold weather.

[wofarm]

you said the pens were covered with tarps? How tightly covered? They need plenty of air even in cold times. breathing damp air is no good.

[budwpm]

The storm that just came through dropped 6 inches of snow here and all my cages are outside. I lost few kits in the last cold spell but that doe had a hard time keeping a litter in good weather so I blame that on her. I still didn't lose half of the litter and they were 14 days old when I lost the last ones. Knowing what weather you are in and what you are going through tells me something else is wrong not your hutches and cages. It might help to be a little more descriptive of exactly how you raise your rabbits. I typically put a nest box in on day 28 or 29 and like clock work my rabbits have their litter on the 31st night. The kits are in leaves and fur for 7 to 10 days then almost all o the leaves and fur are removed(just enough left for them to make a bed to lay on. By the time they are 14 days old they are put on the wire with there mother. I put them all in a grow out pen between 3 and 4 weeks depending on how the doe is feeding them andhow many pellets they are eating. Some have said this is to fast and harsh but it works around here. None of the cages are draft free and I had week old kits when we went into single digits with no loses. Where are you in arkansas? Good luck.

[Pat Lamar]

Originally Posted by rabbithappy

Well, I must say that this winter has been unusally cold for here. When I lost the 2 bunnies, it had been in the teens & single digits for about 10 days. We almost never see that here. Then, late last week, we got another cold blast & with it came 11 inches of snow! Most years, our winters are pretty mild. Sometimes dipping below freezing, but not often or for very long. About the Pasturella, I wondered about that, although I've had no sneezing or nasal discharge with any of the rabbits. I will be culling the mom & the rest of the litter this weekend though. I don't need rabbits with compromised immune systems. The bunnies that I lost, suddenly stopped eating, were weak & lost weight. The mom started sounding like a percolator. She may have had Pasturella that was dormant & this outbreak was caused by the stress of the cold weather.

Me thinks I may have hit the nail on the head, eh? Being an unusually cold winter surely doesn't help, either, since they're likely acclimated to your normal winters. If the doe was "sounding like a percolater," then yes... I would say that the outbreak was likely caused by the stress of the unusually cold weather. Best to quarantine the doe or simply cull and replace her. Do not save any of her litter for replacements, either. You don't need weak immune systems.

Pat Lamar

[mamato3]

What if you use the shed for the does that will be having baby's. Leave the bucks outside and extra hutches outside. Breed 2 to 4 does so that when its time to wean move mama to a hutch outside and move all the babies together to an outside hutch they should keep warm being that many bunnys together. Then you can move your next batch of 2 to 4 does in and repeat. As the older babies get bigger and older just keep splitting them up in other hutches. Tell its time to butcher or sell. That way you can buy less cages for inside. Dont forget to look on craigslist for used cages.

[nzw tom]

I built my own cages and put them in a shed. It has worked great. They are out of the wind and it's nicer for me come feeding time (out of rain and snow). I also have power to the shed and am using heat lamps. Since the use of the lamps, I have not lost one kit to chill.

[Terry W]

I lost two youngsters to cold last week-- i HATE single digits-- I blame my desire to make things easier under the rabbit shelter for the loss of the two young 'uns--I moved them from a housepet type cage that was deep with warm litter, to one of the larger 8 sq foot cages, nothing on the floor. I saw how much fun they were having in the larger area and let them stay there-- These two youngsters were 'dumped off'-so I have no idea of how well the parents handled weather. grrrr.
Almost lost a NZ x Cal brood doe yesterday, found her 'trapped' in the wire spacing of the ex-pen. The other 5 rabbits with her were sitting on her. Poor thing-- I thought she was dead--when I touched her, she opened her eyes and raised an ear. After extricating her, she got a good dose of B complex and several doses of dextrose solution. She spent the night next tot he wood stove-- this morning, she is eating and drinking, and pooping. Even sticking her head up above the box edges and looking around. Another day or two inside, and I think she will be just fine.Her one leg seems a bit sore- how she did what she did is a mystery to me....

[o&itw]

Does your shed have a floor, if so what is it made out of?

Rabbits need ventilation, but also need to be out of the wind. Most "tight" buildings do not give enough ventilation, most hutches have a problem with drafts. I originally used hutches, and found the downside to them was more that it was worth. One can build a pole shed with no floor rather economically, put some used windows in it and save themselves a lot of problems. I have electricity in mine, but usually never use it for keeping the rabbits warm. I did put some nestbox heat in on those cold days you were speaking of because I had does kindling at -8F and -10F, but normally the electricity is simply a convience for me. (lights, radio, and the ability to vaccum) To put any heat in the rabbitry as a whole would be uneconomical because there must also be ventilation. There are lots of cracks and crevices in my shed.. enough to keep drafts out, but also enough to keep humidity from building up (which can cause pneumonia). Except for the roof, and a few used railroad ties, my shed was built with scrap and cost me nothing except the time to build. I have since added some siding outside, which I bought, but it was a ascetic thing and not necessary for the rabbits. I shovel the droppings out 2 or 3 times a year (single tier cages) which limits my work time to 20 to 30 minutes morning and evening. Counting kits, I now have 47 rabbits, two weeks ago before I processed I had 66. This give me much more time to spend checking the rabbits themselves.

The only improvement I have left to make, is to put some insulation or reject paneling under the rafters, because the metal roof radiates too much heat in the summer, but since most of the South wall is windows, I can keep them open in the summer.

You probably have cedars around, they work good for the "poles" of a shed. You will need some cross lumber which can be often found as scrap if one isn't too picky. The sides of my shed are old wood concrete forms, but one can use scrap plywood, pallat material or whatever they have handy. Metal is good and one can normaly get odd pieces and colors inexpensively that are left over from builders of pole barns. The only trouble with metal, is that one still needs something on the inside to keep it from radiating heat in the summer.

[rabbithappy]

Originally Posted by wofarm

you said the pens were covered with tarps? How tightly covered? They need plenty of air even in cold times. breathing damp air is no good.

The tarp isn't long enough to cover the ends, just the north & south sides. The tarp is just wide enough to reach to the bottom of the cages, it doesn't go all the way to the ground. The bottoms of the cages are 3 feet from the ground, so there is plenty of ventilation. I was worried that there was still too much wind from the ends, so I put an old blanket over the cage on the one end where the wind was coming from. That worked really well.

[rabbithappy]

[QUOTE=o&itw;4256978]Does your shed have a floor, if so what is it made out of?

Rabbits need ventilation, but also need to be out of the wind. Most "tight" buildings do not give enough ventilation, most hutches have a problem with drafts. I originally used hutches, and found the downside to them was more that it was worth.



The storage building is one of those portable buildings that are getting popular these days. It does have a plywood floor with linolium over it, which is why the cages would have to have poo pans. It has 2 good sized windows, one of which I can leave open on nice days. The other has a window air conditioner in it. I would not be using heat for them, as I realize that as long as the rabbits are out of the wind, they should be fine in any Arkansas cold.

[rabbithappy]

Originally Posted by Pat Lamar

Me thinks I may have hit the nail on the head, eh? Being an unusually cold winter surely doesn't help, either, since they're likely acclimated to your normal winters. If the doe was "sounding like a percolater," then yes... I would say that the outbreak was likely caused by the stress of the unusually cold weather. Best to quarantine the doe or simply cull and replace her. Do not save any of her litter for replacements, either. You don't need weak immune systems.

Pat Lamar

Yeah, I have them separated now. I plan to cull the mom & all her babies Saturday. Its a shame too as she was an excellent mother, always had 8 kits & until this batch, never lost a single kit for me. Her temperment was great too. I have only had my rabbits since June & she was the first adult female I got.This is a real bummer, but also a good learning experience.

[lostspring]

I also have thought about making my own stackable cages. They look to be fairly simple construction. The main problem I see is trying to flatten the wire when it comes off the roll. It would take two different sizes of wire, one for the top and sides and one for the bottom. I make my own urine gaurds now. I buy 6" galvanized sheet steel in a roll from Menards. I think it comes in 50' rolls.

[Tracy]

Personally, I hated stacking cages when I caged raised rabbits.
It always seemed that the rabbits on the lower level did not get enough light and air flow. This is just my own experience and I am sure others have not had issues.

[Terry W]

Originally Posted by lostspring

I also have thought about making my own stackable cages. They look to be fairly simple construction. The main problem I see is trying to flatten the wire when it comes off the roll. It would take two different sizes of wire, one for the top and sides and one for the bottom. I make my own urine gaurds now. I buy 6" galvanized sheet steel in a roll from Menards. I think it comes in 50' rolls.

I have some advantage here-- Bigbrother has a piece of shop equipmwent that will flatten sheet goods by putting it through the rollers. I noticed one of the little Amish boys as he helped me one day, we cut the panels first, and he easily flexed the panels in the opposite direction, sort of making a wave motion with the panel from end to end. It worked out pretty well. I believe Stromberg's has some relatively inexpensive 3 and 4 foot long bench top brakes for making the corner bends if one does not want to cut individual panels.

[rabbithappy]

I think I have decided on going with cages from Quality Cage. They sound like a very well built cage & they are actually going to be cheaper than the order from Bass would have been. These cages come complete with pans, urine guards,ect & can either be stacked or set up separately. I hope to order 6 of them next month so they'll be here in plenty of time before the hot weather. That also gives me a month to get our storage building cleared out! After almost breaking my neck out there on the ice AGAIN trying to do chores outside, I decided next winter will be different! Thanks for all your input.