Kits have sores around mouth...

General Brown · #1 05/26/08, 03:50 PM

I have a litter of kits that are 17 days old. I just noticed that they have some sort of growth,...bumps,..sores around their mouths. I have never encountered this before. The nest box is clean, and has been. Any ideas?

MaggieJ · #2 05/26/08, 09:28 PM

No ideas... just a few questions. What are you feeding the doe? What bedding are you using in the nest box? Does the doe (or the buck that sired them) have similar symptoms?

The only thing that pops into my mind is rabbit syphilis. I know little about it but there was a thread recently that touched on it.

A quick cut and paste: Syphilis in rabbits is caused by Treponema cuniculi, a spirochete bacterium. Infection results in ulcers and crusty exudates at mucocutaneous junctions of the vulva, prepuce, anus, nose, lips and eyelids. Lesions may resolve and the infection can become subclinical. The agent is transmitted venereally or by contact, and may be passed to young rabbits by the dam. T. cuniculi is endemic in many rabbitries. It is not transmissible to humans. T. cuniculi can be eliminated from rabbitries and individual rabbits with treatment. In clinical cases, an etiologic diagnosis can be made by dark field microscopy of exudate from lesions. Serologic detection of antibodies indicates infection with T. cuniculi.

Also a site with pictures. Rather graphic, but I'm sure your stomach can handle it, GB.
http://homepage.mac.com/exoticdvm/ma...toAlbum72.html

And also a link to the excellent Merck Veterinary Manual:
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in.../bc/171321.htm

I'm hoping that posting this just means you can rule this out as a possibility. Maybe it is just an allergic reaction to something.

General Brown · #3 05/26/08, 09:50 PM

I feed all my rabbits Country Lane pellets, 16% protien. I do not supplement feed at all.
The bedding is straw.
The buck and the doe seem fine, its just the kits.

I checked the links out that you provided. The places on the kits dont appear to be crusty at this point, or protude out like the ones in the pictures.

If it is indeed syphilis, is my buck now infected, along with the other does in my herd that he has bred?

MaggieJ · #4 05/26/08, 09:59 PM

If it is syphilis, that could be the case. Any chance you could post a picture or two so that people who know more than I do could take a look?

How long have you had the rabbits? Have there been other litters by the same buck that did not have this problem?

General Brown · #5 05/26/08, 10:08 PM

I have had them since late November. Another doe that I have produced a litter of 11, that are now entering freezer camp, that had no problems whatsoever. She is currently nursing 12 kits that are 10 days old and they appear fine at this point. The same buck sired all litters.
My digital camera is currently throwing fits, but I will see about borrowing one.

And Maggie,.....thanks!

MaggieJ · #6 05/26/08, 10:14 PM

You're welcome, General Brown.

If it is only this litter and the same buck sired them all, syphilis seems unlikely... unless the doe has it but is asymptomatic. There are tests available.

With a little luck, all the regulars will be back tomorrow after the Memorial Day weekend and someone will be able to say "That's not syphilis, that's just..."

Beaniemom · #7 05/26/08, 10:46 PM

Sounds like syphilis, ick. I had a buck that picked it up either from the show he was at, or the last doe he bred before I got him. I think the show, because it was on his nose, not his privates. Usually they can get it around their mouth because they clean themselves up.

Go check the buck's penis and the does vent for sores and redness.

Mine never got any sores on his parts thank goodness! And the does I bred him to so far look clean (I had used him when he just had like one sore, I thought someone had bitten him!) I don't know what the incubation period is though, maybe someone else knows? I suppose I could try to google it, but I don't feel like looking at icky diseased "parts" today! :O

I would definetely say the Momma has it though, since that must be where they got it from! They either got it on their trip thru the birth canal, or thru the milk (and I'm not sure if its in the milk)

Treatment is either Penicillin or freezer camp. I'd treat the doe, but wouldn't the kits reinfect her if you didn't do them too? I don't know if I would do the kits now, the Pen might kill them.

You do need a fairly hefty dosage for like 10 days at least, my rabbit book says three weeks! I think the Merek site had dosages? I used Pen BP 48 (because thats what was in my fridge) My rabbit was 7ish pounds, and I did slightly over 1cc every other day for 2 weeks. Sores cleared up after about a week. I have not seen them return yet, I won't use him for probably another 6 weeks or so to be sure. Honestly I would have just culled him if he wasn't irreplaceable! I did not see any runny poops at all at this dosage, but use at your own risk! :O

I *think* the dosage was supposed to be IM, but I did it sub Q, I failed miserably at IM!

Beaniemom · #8 05/26/08, 11:24 PM

Okay, I went and looked at the links Maggie posted

Incubation period is 3-6 weeks, BTW

Dosage: Benzathine penicillin G, 42,000 IU/kg, SC, at weekly intervals for 3 wk, is necessary to eradicate treponematosis from a herd. Of course, I have NO IDEA what that is in cc's!

It says to treat treat the whole herd, although I think that is probably overkill. (And may kill the herd too!)

Sooo, lets assume your doe has it. She probably got it from the buck when you bred her. So you'd need to treat the buck, the doe, and any does you used the buck on. Or quarintine and wait for symptoms.

I saw the pics of the rabbit with it, I assume thats what it looks like when you don't pay any attention to your rabbits and let it go on untreated hoping it'll go away. I don't think that the begining stages look like that. I should have taken pics of mine, but you know, you don't want anyone to think you have germs! :O I swear the things these rabbits bring home from shows!

Mine started out with an itty bitty scab. I figured someone bit him on the nose. I even showed him, and tried to register him! :O If I had known that little scab was not a bite, he woudn't have left my house or been used for breeding. I'd say I first noticed it about three weeks after I got him, prior to breeding him. (See, rabbits should stay in quarintine much much longer! LOL) For about a week or so, he just had the little scab. Then another little scab. Then, holy crap what is WRONG with him! :O It was like his whole nose was this giant scabby thing!

On the plus side, I now know what the start of syphilis looks like (oh thank you Murphy for that lovely lesson!) so I have something else to look for when I buy rabbits!

dlwelch · #9 05/27/08, 07:21 AM

Sounds like it could be Staphylococcosis. Usually the little
bumps are seen all over the body but I've also seen them
appear only on the face. In most instances, the kits are
poor performers BUT they often will surprise us! I've had
some of the pustules to disappear as the kit grows and they've
grown very well.

I've also seen these little bumps on kits whose mother had a mild
case of mastitis (usually Staph...isolated by a lab).

Staph is one of the hardest organisms for professional breeders
to keep a handle on. It is everywhere.....on you...on me...
and is resistant to a lot of antibiotics. Prevention is what most
of us strive for.

I would think that confirmation of the exact bacterium is rather
difficult without expensive lab work.

Good luck with the kits.

Linda Welch

General Brown · #10 05/27/08, 08:18 PM

I did a good check on my buck, the doe in question, and the kits today. The bucks genitals seem to be somewhat swollen, with a ring of scabs around the opening to his penis. I then checked the doe, and I never even got to her vulva, I saw a open sore on her mammary area as I was turning her on her back. The kits faces dont look near as bad today.

I am so upset by this...I thought I finally had a breeding program going again and now this. I had noticed about 1 week ago that the hair on the kits did not really look healthy...nothing obvious, but just didnt appear to be thriving. At this same time, I lost 3 of the kits to inknown reasons. Just found them dead in the nestbox. And they appeared to be good size kits and didnt appear to be shrunken.

My main concern at this point is if this has infected the rest of the herd. I have a young doe that is really doing a tremendous job, and I was wanting to save a junior doe from her first litter. The buck in question is the only buck I have in service right now, altho I do have a 10 week old junior buck left. Will the 10 week olds carry this virus? All of the input is greatly appreaciated guys. Thanks

cathleenc · #11 05/27/08, 08:46 PM

just wanted to say that I am sorry! and am following this thread for the opportunity to learn.

dlwelch · #12 05/27/08, 08:51 PM

General Brown said:

Quote:

I then checked the doe, and I never even got to her vulva, I saw a open sore on her mammary area as I was turning her on her back.

Quote:

At this same time, I lost 3 of the kits to inknown reasons. Just found them dead in the nestbox. And they appeared to be good size kits and didnt appear to be shrunken.

As I suggested earlier, it sounds like you are also dealing with mastitis
and the offending bacteria (it's not a virus) is staph.

From Rabbit Production, 8th Edition:
"Another major manifestation of this syndrome is staphylococcal
septicemia. This occurs when the Staph gains entrance into the
cardiovascular system and begins multiplying rapidly, quickly
resulting in death. Staphylococcal septicemia is fairly common in kits
one to three weeks of age. Death is very rapid and about the only
lesions seen during post-mortem exam are salt-sized white spots on
the liver."

Further adding: Diagnosis is generally dependent on isolating the
Staph from the heart blood.

Quote:

I've also seen these little bumps on kits whose mother had a mild
case of mastitis

I'm sorry you are having so many problems.

Linda Welch

MaggieJ · #13 05/27/08, 09:23 PM

I don't blame you for being upset, GB.

You need more information and a clear diagnosis. There is a test for rabbit syphilis. As I understand it, this condition is no threat to humans and is only called "rabbit syphilis" because it is a sexually transmitted disease. Naturally you want to treat it, but you need to be sure of what you are dealing with. It certainly sounds like syphilis, but Linda Welch has years more experience than most of us and is very knowledgeable... so it may be staph. Trouble is, without seeing the rabbits we are all only guessing, based on our experience or what we have read.

If there is a university nearby with labs, that might be your best bet for answers. If not, perhaps there is a vet that knows rabbits or who can at least perform the necessary test for syphilis. In the meantime, read up on both so you know what questions to ask and if you have any rabbits that may not have been exposed, practice good biosecurity to keep from carrying any infection to them - especially if it is staph.

Here is the link to page that had all the links. There are tons of links to more health issues than you ever thought were possible in rabbits, so you'll have to scroll down... but everything is in alphabetical order so just look under S for links to both syphilis and staph (Staphylococcosis).
http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rabrefs.html

Hang in there. Once you know what you are dealing with you will be better equipped to decide what you need to do.

General Brown · #14 05/27/08, 10:41 PM

Linda,
If it is a staph infection, would that explain the sores at the opening of the bucks penis?
If I cull the litter, the buck, and the doe, will the rest of my herd be ok?

thanks again to all with the advice...it sure helps alot.

The sad part is that I am just getting to the heavy production phase with these rabbits and beginning to enjoy the fruits of my labor.

dlwelch · #15 05/27/08, 11:02 PM

Quote:

have a litter of kits that are 17 days old. I just noticed that they have some sort of growth,...bumps,..sores around their mouths. I have never encountered this before. The nest box is clean, and has been. Any ideas?

I was responding to the original question (quoted above).
When you mentioned the problem in the doe's mammary system
I felt I should point out the relationship between your problems
with the kits (bumps and sudden death) and the possible mastitis.

I've not had to deal with any problems on my bucks' penises
so I can't help! You may be dealing with more than one
bacteria. Like Maggie said, we are only "guessing" based
on our personal experiences and knowledge.

You have to remember that Staph is everywhere. Some forms
are just more dangerous than others.

Linda Welch

Beaniemom · #16 05/27/08, 11:11 PM

I think you have syphllis, not staph, but thats just me! (I mean, your rabbits do, not you!)

Well, you can cull the offenders, and should be good if they are not able to "touch noses" with their neighbors and you haven't cross contaminated anyone. Did you foster anyone, switch cages, water bottles, etc. Use the buck on any other does in the last 6 weeks or so?

If it were me and my rabbits, I would treat the buck, since he is your only stud at this point. I don't know about the doe... You could treat her, but you'd have to treat the kits too. Probably a 30 bottle of drugs and a bag full of needles when all is said and done. Way cheaper than what a vet visit and lab culture will run you! So I would probably cull the doe and the litter, unless she was irreplaceable! That is assuming you can find a rabbit savvy vet in your area. The only time I took one (had to bring the rabbit in so they could charge a office visit rather than just doing a nasal swab!) I had to tell them what to look for on the labs, what drugs I wanted that were rabbit safe, etc.

Now, if its Staph, I would cull it now. Nasty stuff, staph is! Only problem is, you wouldn't know for sure if thats what it was. Can you bop one of the kits and check for liver spots?

I'd put all the offenders in quarintine if you haven't already done so. Clean everything, then clean it again!

For what a vet visit and treatment will run you, you can buy three new rabbits!

General Brown · #17 05/27/08, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beaniemom

I think you have syphllis, not staph, but thats just me! (I mean, your rabbits do, not you!)

Well, you can cull the offenders, and should be good if they are not able to "touch noses" with their neighbors and you haven't cross contaminated anyone. Did you foster anyone, switch cages, water bottles, etc. Use the buck on any other does in the last 6 weeks or so?

If it were me and my rabbits, I would treat the buck, since he is your only stud at this point. I don't know about the doe... You could treat her, but you'd have to treat the kits too. Probably a 30 bottle of drugs and a bag full of needles when all is said and done. Way cheaper than what a vet visit and lab culture will run you! So I would probably cull the doe and the litter, unless she was irreplaceable! That is assuming you can find a rabbit savvy vet in your area. The only time I took one (had to bring the rabbit in so they could charge a office visit rather than just doing a nasal swab!) I had to tell them what to look for on the labs, what drugs I wanted that were rabbit safe, etc.

Now, if its Staph, I would cull it now. Nasty stuff, staph is! Only problem is, you wouldn't know for sure if thats what it was. Can you bop one of the kits and check for liver spots?

I'd put all the offenders in quarintine if you haven't already done so. Clean everything, then clean it again!

For what a vet visit and treatment will run you, you can buy three new rabbits!

Firstly, I DONT have syphilis. My rabbits might, but not me.

Seriously, thanks for the thoughts.

I never fostered, and the buck did breed my young doe that has the 10 day old kits, so she would definately fall in that time period. All of my cages prevent any nose touching, so should be allright there. However, I did switch some water pans around yesterday. I moved the doe in questions watrer dish to the bucks cage, and his to hers as the babies were coming out of the nest box and she had the deeper pan and i didnt want to risk loosing a kit to drowning.
What would the spots look like on the liver?

Edited to add........quote:For what a vet visit and treatment will run you, you can buy three new rabbits! unquote

That is very good advice and so true!!!

MaggieJ · #18 05/28/08, 07:21 AM

One more link for you, GB. You might want to bookmark these links for future reference. I know I will!

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/cat...w/pnw310-e.pdf

Terry W · #19 05/28/08, 12:49 PM

The online merck vet manual has a treatment protocol that can be helpfull in producing 'clean' offspring from affected adults. That manual isn't a lot ofn help, but it has some usefull info in it...

Beaniemom · #20 05/28/08, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry W

The online merck vet manual has a treatment protocol that can be helpfull in producing 'clean' offspring from affected adults. That manual isn't a lot ofn help, but it has some usefull info in it...

Really? That would be helpful to know. Wonder if you could use the same thing if the doe was snotty or something as well? I wish when they did dosages they did ML or CC's instead of units...I'm confused as to what this dosage would be: 42,000 IU/kg, SC Pretty sure they didn't mean 42,000 cc's!