Lost litter questions

rmrc · #1 02/19/14, 05:44 PM

Well crap... One of my gilts gave birth during the night and all 11 babies died. When I checked on her this morning they were cold. Last evening she was up and eating, doing fine. She appeared to have 3-4 days left. I know that sometimes a gilt will have issues with the first litter, but she sure had me fooled.
I know that we have discussed it before, but I can't find the thread. How long after loosing a litter should she come back into heat? Would there be an issue with breeding her right away? I understand that I need to watch her closely for a couple weeks.
Thanks guys.....

gerold · #2 02/19/14, 07:08 PM

Did Gilt make a nest?

**highlands** · #3 02/19/14, 07:11 PM

Typically back in heat in seven to ten days if she's still fertile and in good condition then fine. There are diseases that cause high losses in P1 litters in particular. Often 2nd litter is fine.

haypoint · #4 02/19/14, 09:32 PM

Do you think they just froze? What do you think caused the deaths? Disease? Lack of minerals? There are a few cases of PEDv in Michigan, sure you know about that. Sorry for your loss.

rmrc · #5 02/20/14, 08:22 AM

I'm pretty certain that she simply didn't take care of them. They were scattered all over her birthing area. It has been warmer than recent temps but still too cold for them to survive without mom's help. All of the babies appear to have been born live and healthy. The next litter will probably be better. I didn't expect them for a couple more days. She hadn't been nesting, had been up, moving and eating well. Sadly, it was the nicest first litter any of our girls have ever had.

haypoint · #6 02/20/14, 08:47 AM

Do you think that placing a bred gilt into a Farrowing crate with a heat light over the side areas for the week leading up to farrowing would have helped?
Is it a good thing, natural selection, for a pig that lacked mothering abilities to not continue that line?
With the price of feeder pigs this year and especially this time of year, you have sustained a big loss, again, my sympathy to you.

rmrc · #7 02/20/14, 09:54 AM

Haypoint, It probably would have helped. Our Michigan weather could have been more cooperative too! I have a birthing pen set up but decided to leave her in with the other 4 pigs because she didn't tell me that she was ready. It would have been easier for her to keep warm with the others. I didn't see any injuries to the babies so the other pigs didn't kill them. It hurts but I'll chalk this up to experience. I have 3 other gilts pregnant by the same boar. They're a month out. The weather will be better and I'll be smarter!

ErikaMay · #8 02/20/14, 10:20 AM

Inexperienced first timers being left alone? Never a good idea. Pigs don't have to take sex ed in high school so they don't know what they are getting into. They feel frisky, get it on and one day almost 4 months later they start going into contractions (which is painful) and all the sudden a little screaming thing pops out of their body and starts runnning around.

FREAKY. Where did this little thing come from, why is it screaming and trying to nuzzle me?!!!

In my opinion pigs who have had the chance to see other sows farrow tend to figure it out quicker, but pigs who've never seen piglets since they were piglets? they can get scared. My first gilt to farrow had super mixed feelings about the piglets: she kinda cared for them and didn't want to hurt them or hear them scream but had no idea what was going on. At one point she was laying in her nest bug eyed with her legs tucked under her and belly protected. I luckily was there to calm her down and got her to relax and roll over, babies latched on and she was a perfect momma ever since. They would have probably died if i wasn't around. I let one gilt farrow alone in the woods....i got 2 live babies out of that. :/ Next gilt had seen piglets so when she had her first she sat up and went "? nyrk?" the nearby sows heard her and shouted "its okay! don't worry!", so she shrugged and laid down unaffected and went back into labor.

Point is: first timers, especially first timers who have never seen piglets before, either need you there to assist them or be crated.

**highlands** · #9 02/20/14, 12:01 PM

Not quite true. Some gilts are naturally mothers. They do the right thing the first time. Breed for that. It is genetic. Pigs should not need assistance for breeding, feeding, farrowing, etc. What you do will select your genetics towards that. The more you crate and assist the more your livestock will need that to survive.

gerold · #10 02/20/14, 06:27 PM

Sorry for your lost. I have only had one Gilt to loose her piglets. I butchered her. No second chance here.

BobbyB · #11 02/20/14, 06:53 PM

Our LB gilt is a good careful momma, but had a difficult time pigging.

I'll give her one more chance to see how she does but that will be it. If we dont get at least 8 squirming and squealing pigs, she will either go to the sale or be sausage. That will depend on freezer space at the time.

bmurphy96 · #12 02/20/14, 07:47 PM

issues like these are one reason why it's so hard find good sows and boars. There are sows that can take care of their babies without farrowing crates and heat. My only sow had a litter three weeks ago on the coldest night of the year for around here. It was about 25 degrees and actually icing and hail. It was her second litter (first for us) and she had 13 piglets with one stillborn. We lost one more the next night probably to suffocation. He was one of the biggest piglets so apparently that meant he got to sleep on the bottom of the pile. The other eleven are going strong. She is a very good mamma in terms of her care and mannerisms around the piglets. I didn't know pigs would root through the hay to check for piglets before laying down..she does. She lays down slowly. She seems to produce enough milk. Those kinds of things.

I didn't know what to expect -- I bought her for $200 bred off craiglist. No real way of knowing. In a way I got lucky. If she didn't do well i probably would have put her in the freezer as soon as she weaned. Even so, I will probably not keep her for terribly long as she doesn't have the best of form -- her back legs are too close together. I would think that would cause birthing problems although she didn't seem to have any issues this time. I am hoping to get some good gilts out of her that have her mothering ability. I am trying to develop pasture-raised pigs. It will require lots of selection. No electric cords go into the pasture

It's hard and for most people not even necessary. But I don't really have a desire to be a pig babysitter. To each their own.

Keith

WildRoots · #13 02/20/14, 09:00 PM

I have a great sow in terms of size and healthy litters but she's a bitch! My big boar is super friendly, they throw great litters together. I saved and bred 3 gilts from their last spring litter (16 born 4 boars 12 gilts). They pigged good litters and thank god the sows have theirs sires personality. My only problem is from their recent litters only 6 boar piglets versus 18 gilts! I guess its good though.��

WildRoots · #14 02/20/14, 09:01 PM

Really good mommas^^^

ErikaMay · #15 02/20/14, 11:31 PM

suppose I should have been more specific.

"don't know the farrowing tendency of a brand new line of pigs being left to farrow alone? not a good idea"

Walter, you know your pigs well enough and they have been raised around to see others farrow and piglets. They have a piggie culture and genetic selection that inclines them towards unassisted labor. Taking a random gilt whos been raised with other pigs its own age only and breeding it...well, its lived in a vacuum. Not to say it can't be done.

Its pretty common in the wild for first time mothers to freak out and kill their young. Pandas do it all the time, thus, not very successful breeders. elephants frequently do so, too. Sheep, too. Yeah, breed for better genetics, but don't assume all first timers will be fine especially if you don't know their breeding tendencies. .

Pig in a poke · #16 02/21/14, 03:40 PM

Maternal instinct tends to be inherited along the dam line. With horses, a proven broodmare will have daughters that will be naturally good mothers, not requiring birthing assistance, even as maidens. At least this has been our experience when we gave up on the hourly checks, and the babies were on the ground and dry by the time we next checked. Of course, I know it is better to be safe than sorry. But in general, good mamas are consistent along the female line.

rmrc, do you know anything about your gilt's dam? That might help you know what to expect from her in farrowing and raising her piglets. Sorry for your loss.

gimpy · #17 02/21/14, 04:21 PM

IME, I'd give her one more chance. The next time will be in warm weather. If she fails that, then it's sausage time. If she figures that one out, then she has a decent chance of doing it right in cold weather

rmrc · #18 02/22/14, 07:03 AM

I'll definitely try another time. That's why I asked how soon she would come into heat again. I don't know much about her dam, other than she had exactly what I was looking for in conformity.(her shape looked like my old sow) I've been keeping Berkshires for the last 8 years. I sent my previous sow to freezer camp as she just got too big. She was a great mom but with a live weight of 720 she just got too expensive.(but tasted great!) My boar is one of her offspring. With 11 babies in this litter, I guess both boar and gilt did okay. She simply gave no indication that she was ready to have babies. If she had told me, I would have been holding her hoof, telling her to breathe! She won't fool me again.
Thanks for the posts and advise.
Ron

Pig in a poke · #19 02/25/14, 12:20 PM

Do you mind if I ask what your plans are for the boar? Obviously, he'll get huge, too. Will you take him to butcher and hope for no boar taint? How old will he be before he gets too big to keep? (Asking because we have a young berk boar, and I'm wondering these things.)

**highlands** · #20 02/25/14, 04:18 PM

"To big to keep" is what ever size you feel is that. It take years for them to get huge.

I have boars up in the 600 to 800 lb range right now and the generally top out well over 1,000 lbs lean on pasture. Our biggest boar was over 1,700 lbs with a brother over 1,400 lbs at around six years or so. Both were servicing sows right up to the end. They did get too big for me to send to slaughter because they simply wouldn't fit in our truck - too long and tall - sort of like short legged cattle.

If you've got a good tempered boar who's still performing keep them at the job. Our oldest boar was eight years at about 1,100 lbs when we slaughtered him. He did go to butcher (tasted delicious - like beef) but he took up the entire space in the truck. I couldn't take anyone else that week because of his size.