Rebuttal to HSUS bullying of McDonalds

Lazy J · #1 02/20/12, 02:36 PM

I know most of you will disagree with the comments of this farmer, but I posted it anyways. Take the time to view the last video, it is 7 minutes long but it shows what happens in a pig farm from a farmer's perspective not through the highly editted and suspect lens of an Animal Rights Activist.

Chris Chinn Blog

This video featuring an Indiana Hog Farmer does a good job of discussing how pig farmers take care of their animals today.

NW Indiana Hog Farm

Jim

BobbyB · #2 02/20/12, 03:13 PM

I enjoyed that video. I found it pretty informative.

mekasmom · #3 02/20/12, 04:27 PM

Most of the video was just cartoon, but at fifty seconds into the the video you see the crowding problem of confinement pens such as those in nurseries or feeder or gilt pens. Did you know that the pigs will actually chew on each other's tails particularly when there is crowding, so that is why they are clipped off at one day old? I didn't finish the video, so I'm not sure if they even show the farrowing crates. I don't know if they show the sows hip bones that get pressure sores when they are forced to lay in those crates for weeks on end while delivering and nursing?
I do know what confinements are like though. I have spent numerous hours in them, both with wire crates and creates on concrete. I have seen thousands of sows farrow in confinement buildings and multiplicity of piglets. I've docked tails, vaccinated, given iron shots, fixed hernias on piglets, clipped teeth, etc, etc, etc on thousands upon thousands of piglets. That is what my family did for a living for many years.
They are cruel. That is just the bare truth. They are cruel. It is cruel to raise hundreds of animals in such a small space. It is cruel to make them endure the smell of the ammonia that reeks from all those animals waste products being gathered to ship to the pit. And lets talk about castrating them. There is an apparatus that hangs on the wall, kind of like double vice grips that you put the piglets into upside down so it clamps around them to hold them. Then you make the incision either belly or scrotum, they did the belly where dh managed, to push the testes up through slit and clip off one at a time. They castrated early there, around 2-3 weeks. And if there was a hernia, you repaired it at the same time. They preferred the belly cuts because they were cleaner than scrotum cuts. It only took one person to castrate because they had that vice holder thing that would hold the little guys up while you did it. Then spray iodine and put them back into the crate.

And let's address a real lie in the video. Have you ever seen a predator take down a pig from a group? Are you kidding me? Even when you allow sows to farrow outside no predator gets near the pens. Predators become prey in a group of hogs. They will kill and eat ANYTHING. Coyotes don't go near the pens unless they want to become dinner for the swine. If you have several hundred hogs, or even just a few dozens sows and piglets, in pens you don't have predator problems. I have never seen a predator kill a hog, especially not when they are kept in multiples. I suppose if you kept a group of two or three feeder piglets alone it might be a possibility, but not with the numbers that the video was showing. That is just not true.
One time back around '86-87 the guy up the road had his beagles out running, and they got into the breeding pens one day. The hogs killed and ate two of the beagles in that pack that day. They just all ran at them stomping them and grabbing pieces of dog. The rest of that pack was running for its life to get back out of the pen. They will eat anything... chickens that wander into the pens, snakes, rats..... Hogs are not low on the prey scale, they are predators.
Confinements are cruel. I know this because I have spent many, many hours in them. It's how my BIL's whole family made it's money. It's how we grew up in our family.
The absolute only plus to confinements and nurseries is that they reduce layover in cold weather. But it's not really that big of a problem anyway. When the confinements buildings were full they use to let the sows farrow out in the pens with hog huts. And layover wasn't that much of a problem. Now it was harder to catch the piglets to clip teeth, tails, castrate, give iron shots, etc. So that might be why some farmers think the buildings are better. It is less work, and you don't have to contend with angry sows that can move fast because they aren't stuck in a crate. But there is less crowding, happier swine, bigger swine because they grow faster when they aren't crowded. The benefits to the swine just outweigh any ease that confinements bring to the farmer. They are just cruel, and too crowded, too smelly, and just plain cruel. I know this from the bottom of my heart because we did both.

mekasmom · #4 02/20/12, 04:38 PM

I have to address one more issue. Have you ever had a sow die in one of those crates? It is horrible. One Sunday afternoon the AC went out in the confinement, so three Poland China Sows died. It was so horrible. They were HUGE sows, really HUGE. Nothing like a hamp or yorkie or landrace or the others. These were huge. When you stood in front of the creates the sows were as tall as you were, and looked directly into your eyes at eye level. ( Of course I am only five feet, so if you are taller then they would have been shorter to you.)

Since three died the same day, the vet came for narcolepsy (sp). It was just from the heat because the AC went down, and these were huge sows that couldn't take heat. Anyway, they had to be dismembered to get them out of the crates. People were taking home parts of them to cook. I remember Dr. Dave himself took home a couple of the legs for hams.
None of those sows would have died if they had been out in the pens. There were another 250 of the Polands outside in the pens that didn't have a problem at all. They had their mud and shade. The confinement killed those three sows.
I just don't like confinements. I really liked some of the girls there. And I felt so sorry for them being stuck in those horrible crowded buildings and crates. The yorkies were adorable little pigs, so sweet. Even the Polands were cool pigs, kind of stately and arrogant in their own way. I felt so sorry for them.
More power to McD. At least they are trying to show the swine a bit of kindness by not encouraging farmers to use confinements any more.

Lazy J · #5 02/20/12, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

One time back around '86-87 .......

With respect, a lot has changed in hog farming in the past 25 years.

Take a look at this video, the farm on this video is similar to many that I work with everyday.

NW Indiana Pig Farm

Wanda · #6 02/20/12, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

I have to address one more issue. Have you ever had a sow die in one of those crates? It is horrible. One Sunday afternoon the AC went out in the confinement, so three Poland China Sows died. It was so horrible. They were HUGE sows, really HUGE. Nothing like a hamp or yorkie or landrace or the others. These were huge. When you stood in front of the creates the sows were as tall as you were, and looked directly into your eyes at eye level. ( Of course I am only five feet, so if you are taller then they would have been shorter to you.)

Since three died the same day, the vet came for narcolepsy (sp). It was just from the heat because the AC went down, and these were huge sows that couldn't take heat. Anyway, they had to be dismembered to get them out of the crates. People were taking home parts of them to cook. I remember Dr. Dave himself took home a couple of the legs for hams.
None of those sows would have died if they had been out in the pens. There were another 250 of the Polands outside in the pens that didn't have a problem at all. They had their mud and shade. The confinement killed those three sows.
I just don't like confinements. I really liked some of the girls there. And I felt so sorry for them being stuck in those horrible crowded buildings and crates. The yorkies were adorable little pigs, so sweet. Even the Polands were cool pigs, kind of stately and arrogant in their own way. I felt so sorry for them.
More power to McD. At least they are trying to show the swine a bit of kindness by not encouraging farmers to use confinements any more.

Show me a sow that can be eye level with a 5ft. tall person and can fit in a farowing crate and we will have a civil talk about gestation crates.

BobbyB · #7 02/20/12, 04:58 PM

mekasmom, did you watch the second video at all , or did you not bother since just about every aspect of hog raising is cruel?

Fineswine · #8 02/20/12, 06:05 PM

Its no use,these people will find somthing to cry about no matter what you do!....Im one of the "Well Im gonna eat this son of a bit*h anyway" kind of people,so I could care less what anyone who isnt paying my feed bill thinks anyway.

mekasmom · #9 02/20/12, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanda

Show me a sow that can be eye level with a 5ft. tall person and can fit in a farowing crate and we will have a civil talk about gestation crates.

They did. The crate had wire about six inches above the floor, on wire. and the huge Polands fit in them. Now the hamps and yorkies and landrace and durocs were smaller, but the Polands were HUGE. I mean really Huge. We kept them in the back confinement building not far from the breeding pen areas. We had several Poland sows, but bred them with hamps because of the size issues. Unfortunately the day the AC went out back there, it was impossible to get the Polands out that died because they were so big. It wasn't like pulling out a hamp or other breed. The guys literally had to cut them up to take them out. They were a really big breed that were all black and looked like a giant pot belly pig because they were so heavy. They weren't a good breed though because they had smaller litters and just didn't thrive in warm weather. The Landrace produced the best and most consistently.

Back then, most farmers contracted with different feed companies or ag companies and raised swine exclusively to sell to them using their feed. Fortunately, my husband managed confinement buildings for a private owner at that time, so we were able to have a lot of different breeds whatever suited their fancy. They had purchased the Polands because their kid was showing them for 4H one year. I like the little spotted red pigs, but I can't remember the name of the breed. they were pretty, and the Yorks were so sweet. I loved their little upturned noses. Because it was a private owner, we got to bring home different runts or any of the ones that turned up with rhinitis or anything. It was good for our family.

My BIL family also ran a smaller operation, as did our cousin, but it wasn't anything like the confinement numbers. At one point they had like 1200 (Sorry, 1200 not 12000, too many zeros when I reread it) sows/gilts at the confinement buildings plus all the piglets and boars. At one point they did have a Poland China Boar named Richard, but he was too fat to produce, so he just kind of walked around the pens and lay in the shade. He was never really used to produce piglets. He didn't last long, they sent him to market quickly as soon as the kid was not around.

I have happy memories of the place though. We had lots of fun as our kids grew up working there. Our older boys helped on weekends with the smaller feeders and in the nursery. My husband wouldn't let them get near the adult pens because it was just too dangerous.

The adults in the breeding pens were so funny. If they saw a rat or a snake they would all squeal with delight to chase it down, stomp it and consume it. They would run around pulling the carcass out of each other's mouths like a bunch of hens fighting over food. Hogs really like to eat.

Each of the confinement buildings had two rooms with 40 crates on each side of the rooms and the bigger row in the middle with a couple of holding cages. They also had the nursery building and a couple of nursery trailers with stacked crates to raise feeders until they could be sold or moves outside to keep and breed. It seems like we switched sows in and out every five or six weeks or so. We never had enough room in the crates for everyone who was farrowing, so we also had some pens outside with hog huts for sows to farrow too, especially in warmer weather. My husband kind of indulged me, and let my "favorites" go out there to farrow because I felt so sorry for the sows in the crates, so a lot of the yorks and durocs actually farrowed on ground instead in the confinement buildings.

BobbyB · #10 02/20/12, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

They did. The crate had wire about six inches above the floor, and the huge Polands fit in them. Now the hamps and yorkies and landrace and durocs were smaller, but the Polands were HUGE. I mean really Huge. We kept them in the back confinement building. We had several Poland sows, but bred them with hamps because of the size issues.

Id really like to see some Poland Chinas or any breed of hog for that matter that stood 5 foot at eye level.

Heck, Id breed em and turn em loose around here just so we could hunt Hogzilla on a daily basis.

HardBall · #11 02/22/12, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

They did. The crate had wire about six inches above the floor, on wire. and the huge Polands fit in them. Now the hamps and yorkies and landrace and durocs were smaller, but the Polands were HUGE. I mean really Huge. We kept them in the back confinement building not far from the breeding pen areas. We had several Poland sows, but bred them with hamps because of the size issues. Unfortunately the day the AC went out back there, it was impossible to get the Polands out that died because they were so big. It wasn't like pulling out a hamp or other breed. The guys literally had to cut them up to take them out. They were a really big breed that were all black and looked like a giant pot belly pig because they were so heavy. They weren't a good breed though because they had smaller litters and just didn't thrive in warm weather. The Landrace produced the best and most consistently.

Back then, most farmers contracted with different feed companies or ag companies and raised swine exclusively to sell to them using their feed. Fortunately, my husband managed confinement buildings for a private owner at that time, so we were able to have a lot of different breeds whatever suited their fancy. They had purchased the Polands because their kid was showing them for 4H one year. I like the little spotted red pigs, but I can't remember the name of the breed. they were pretty, and the Yorks were so sweet. I loved their little upturned noses. Because it was a private owner, we got to bring home different runts or any of the ones that turned up with rhinitis or anything. It was good for our family.

My BIL family also ran a smaller operation, as did our cousin, but it wasn't anything like the confinement numbers. At one point they had like 1200 (Sorry, 1200 not 12000, too many zeros when I reread it) sows/gilts at the confinement buildings plus all the piglets and boars. At one point they did have a Poland China Boar named Richard, but he was too fat to produce, so he just kind of walked around the pens and lay in the shade. He was never really used to produce piglets. He didn't last long, they sent him to market quickly as soon as the kid was not around.

I have happy memories of the place though. We had lots of fun as our kids grew up working there. Our older boys helped on weekends with the smaller feeders and in the nursery. My husband wouldn't let them get near the adult pens because it was just too dangerous.

The adults in the breeding pens were so funny. If they saw a rat or a snake they would all squeal with delight to chase it down, stomp it and consume it. They would run around pulling the carcass out of each other's mouths like a bunch of hens fighting over food. Hogs really like to eat.

Each of the confinement buildings had two rooms with 40 crates on each side of the rooms and the bigger row in the middle with a couple of holding cages. They also had the nursery building and a couple of nursery trailers with stacked crates to raise feeders until they could be sold or moves outside to keep and breed. It seems like we switched sows in and out every five or six weeks or so. We never had enough room in the crates for everyone who was farrowing, so we also had some pens outside with hog huts for sows to farrow too, especially in warmer weather. My husband kind of indulged me, and let my "favorites" go out there to farrow because I felt so sorry for the sows in the crates, so a lot of the yorks and durocs actually farrowed on ground instead in the confinement buildings.

In your first post you were appalled by the scenes you saw while growing up and now you state you have fond memories... Maybe I am confused or you are just trying to add credibility to your unsubstantiated statements.

Narshalla · #12 02/22/12, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mekasmom

9snip)And lets talk about castrating them. There is an apparatus that hangs on the wall, kind of like double vice grips that you put the piglets into upside down so it clamps around them to hold them. Then you make the incision either belly or scrotum, they did the belly where dh managed, to push the testes up through slit and clip off one at a time. They castrated early there, around 2-3 weeks. And if there was a hernia, you repaired it at the same time. They preferred the belly cuts because they were cleaner than scrotum cuts. It only took one person to castrate because they had that vice holder thing that would hold the little guys up while you did it. Then spray iodine and put them back into the crate.(snip)

I will readily admit that I don't know everything about pigs, but I have helped butcher some, and I cannot quite grasp how an incision in the belly would be at all useful.

Perhaps someone would enlighten me, because I don't understand.

happymainepigs · #13 02/28/12, 07:47 AM

I am sharing a link to a video I was emailed today. Watching this video reminded me of this post about HSUS and mcdonalds. I watched the 7 minute video posted here by Lazy J. It showed clean animals and it seemed not so bad until the guy said that the sows stayed in the same spot 99% of the time, dispite having the ability to back out of the stall... that seemed wrong to me. Pigs like to move around.
Anyway, this is a long video, but I found it informative. I will warn you, it does not show the industrialized animal production in as nice a way as Lazy J's post. If anyone here has the time to watch, here it is.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...cumentary.aspx

Lazy J · #14 02/28/12, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happymainepigs

I am sharing a link to a video I was emailed today. Watching this video reminded me of this post about HSUS and mcdonalds. I watched the 7 minute video posted here by Lazy J. It showed clean animals and it seemed not so bad until the guy said that the sows stayed in the same spot 99% of the time, dispite having the ability to back out of the stall... that seemed wrong to me. Pigs like to move around.
Anyway, this is a long video, but I found it informative. I will warn you, it does not show the industrialized animal production in as nice a way as Lazy J's post. If anyone here has the time to watch, here it is.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...cumentary.aspx

You had me until the threw Michael Pollan into the mix.

CCCC · #15 02/28/12, 08:26 AM

I think that we have to look at HSUS and what their agenda is: To stop any and all production of Meat, Milk, and Eggs for human consumption. There ultimate goal is for the entire world to live off of a Vegan diet. This includes all hunting & fishing too.

They don't care if you are a homesteader or a large swine integrator. They are picking the agricultural community apart and when we starting fighting among ourselves that gives them more power. They are winning small battles against the agricultural community everyday and its way of life.

I have nothing against confinements or dirt raised hogs as they both have pro's and con's the fact is farmers will not be able to raise enough food for our growing population if we pasture raise all of our animals and do not have some type of confinement system. We don't have enough pasture to grow our cow herd in the US let alone pasture sows.

How will 9 billion people eat in 2050 off of the same amount of land?

Mekasmom how does your family make a living these days?

Is any of your family directly or indirectly involved with agriculture anymore?

Do you suggest that we stop castrating pigs and run a bunch of boars out together? If you think tail biting is bad wait until you see a bunch of boars fighting in pens or not.

How does the farmer keeping looking like the bad guy all the time I don't understand as they have to make a living off of the land they work and the animals they raise? He wants to take the best care of them that he possibly can to stay in business and provide for his family.

**highlands** · #16 02/28/12, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCCC

I think that we have to look at HSUS and what their agenda is: To stop any and all production of Meat, Milk, and Eggs for human consumption. There ultimate goal is for the entire world to live off of a Vegan diet. This includes all hunting & fishing too.

Completely true. Unfortunately HSUS and PETA have suckered a lot of people into believing that these groups actually help animals. They don't. They kill animals. They are trying to divorce humanity from nature. These groups should lose their non-profit status. There is no excuse for them being supported by tax exemptions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCCC

How will 9 billion people eat in 2050 off of the same amount of land?

Quite easily and we can do it without CAFOs or mega farms. The problem is not a shortage of food but bad distribution primarily caused by greedy warlords and the like.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCCC

Do you suggest that we stop castrating pigs

Yes, I would suggest that. But I don't want to see a government mandate. Do it because it makes good business sense. Because it is humane. Because you want to. We don't castrate. We don't get boar taint from our pigs. Not castrating saves pig lives, saves time and increases profits. A farm needs to be profitable to be sustainable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCCC

and run a bunch of boars out together?

Yes, it works fine. We have hundreds of boars (i.e., not castrated) running together and they're fine. This is very doable. Besides, boars grow faster and are more efficient at turning food into meat than barrows or gilts.

Waiting Falcon · #17 02/28/12, 10:16 AM

There would never be "factory" farms if there was not a demand for the product. I prefer to raise my own but there are millions that do not have that chance. The city folks do have to be fed even if so many of them think that the supermarket produces the meat and have no realization what it takes a farmer of what ever size to produce what they eat.
HSUS will never show good farms and there are bad farms .

gerold · #18 02/28/12, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happymainepigs

I am sharing a link to a video I was emailed today. Watching this video reminded me of this post about HSUS and mcdonalds. I watched the 7 minute video posted here by Lazy J. It showed clean animals and it seemed not so bad until the guy said that the sows stayed in the same spot 99% of the time, dispite having the ability to back out of the stall... that seemed wrong to me. Pigs like to move around.
Anyway, this is a long video, but I found it informative. I will warn you, it does not show the industrialized animal production in as nice a way as Lazy J's post. If anyone here has the time to watch, here it is.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...cumentary.aspx

Thanks for the video link. Interesting. I like watching all the video's i can on the subject of pigs. I can get a lot of information on stream lining and how to design different ways in raising pigs. I have an open mind on the raising of stock. Be it factory farms of like an operation like i have. Just a simple farm.
Good and bad both ways. Always ways to improve both operations.

Best,
Gerold.

tailwagging · #19 02/28/12, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by happymainepigs

I am sharing a link to a video I was emailed today. Watching this video reminded me of this post about HSUS and mcdonalds. I watched the 7 minute video posted here by Lazy J. It showed clean animals and it seemed not so bad until the guy said that the sows stayed in the same spot 99% of the time, dispite having the ability to back out of the stall... that seemed wrong to me. Pigs like to move around.
Anyway, this is a long video, but I found it informative. I will warn you, it does not show the industrialized animal production in as nice a way as Lazy J's post. If anyone here has the time to watch, here it is.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...cumentary.aspx

Thank you for posting this.

BobbyB · #20 02/28/12, 11:38 AM

I dont know what the answer is, but I do know going from one extreme to another is not the answer.

Inconvenience, fast money, more money, no time and just plain laziness all come in to play with food production on the large scale and individual scale.

Not to mention the meddlesome politicians and folks that cant mind their own business.

Hogs, geese, chickens and the like have been raised in close confinement probably since time began.

There are places today where a goose has its feet nailed to a board and is fed out. Pigs have been fed out in crates where all they can do is stand and lay down. Chickens put under a basket and fed daily til they are big enough to eat.

Its all in the human mind because the animals dont lay around thinking " boy this sux "

Me personally, I dont like rolled hay. I spent to many days haying off the back of a truck and a trailer and then driving back looking the cows and calves over looking for problems.

I dont like cotton modules because I have fond memories of pulling trailers of cotton to the gin and hitching up an empty and seeing neighbors there doing the same and seeing how their crop is turning out as well as others in the area.

The area farmers picking as early as possible trying for the first bale in the county and getting their picture in the paper and a premium for the cotton.

The world has gotten itself in a big dayummed hurry and that, folks is the biggest problem of all.