Crossbred potbelly?

TanithT · #1 05/19/11, 10:39 AM

Someone I know picked up a pig at auction they think is half potbelly; it almost certainly belonged to the potbelly mom. Other boars from that farm were young Hampshire. Is it even possible for a young Hampshire boar to breed a large (150 lb+) female potbelly? Wouldn't that kill the mother, or at least cause more damage than seemed to be evident?

olivehill · #2 05/19/11, 03:51 PM

Not necessarily. A young hamp would be about the same size as the sow when he entered puberty. The breeding itself would pose no real harm. If the piglets had become too large to successfully pass through the birth canal that could have posed harm to her, but large boar/smaller sow breedings aren't unheard of. And, provided, someone is there to pull a large pig if it gets stuck the sow would usually come out relatively unharmed. It's the pigs that would usually end up suffering the worst fate. Any pig that is stuck either in the birth canal or behind another that is stuck in the birth canal too long can die.

HeritagePigs · #3 05/19/11, 04:35 PM

I guess I have to ask, why? Why would someone want to cross a hamp with a PB?

olivehill · #4 05/19/11, 04:45 PM

I certainly can't answer for these folks specifically, but a few "reasons" that someone might think to use off the top of my head:

- Increase size potential in the herd. Bigger than potbellies, but smaller than market hogs.

- Ham Development. PBPs don't tend to have nice, round hams. They lack in that area, usually. They might select the nicest ham development from the crossbred offspring and continue to breed for that quality.

- Leaner meat. Crossbreds might not be quite so prone to packing on the lard.

- Hybrid Vigor. Even if the offspring come out on the smaller side from the PBP they'll probably grow faster than pure PBs.

- PBPs tend towards the sickly side all too often because of the pet market and the backyard breeding that went on. "Breeding back to health" could be a goal.

HeritagePigs · #5 05/19/11, 05:22 PM

OK, good points, but basically that would be like trying to turn a PB into a guinea hog. See what I mean? I don't think that improving PBs would be worth it when there are other breeds that already meet the need.

My personal opinion is that PBs have no future as a pork producing breed. Too much improvement is needed. I like the idea of trying to rebrand them as AHHs, and I wish those breeders well, but I think the pet PB world has already ruined that plan.

They can be helpful around the farm but pretty much there are breeds that already exist that do better than PBs as small farm hogs. We had some that we rescued from a farm but they were pretty much worthless. (shields up...)

My guess is that these crosses came from a farmer that wasn't planning; it just happened.

If PBs did catch my fancy I think I would keep them pure just to protect the genetics from being manipulated by the pet breeders.

olivehill · #6 05/19/11, 07:58 PM

Yep, I'm certainly not saying I agree with the reasons. Or that I find them valid, personally speaking. And I'm not saying I disagree with you. Just the reasons I could think of that someone might use for justifying.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me one BIT if it were on purpose. There are people breeding worse out of the PBPs. And that's all I'll say about that. Teeth: Tongue. Biting.

Gailann Schrader · #7 05/19/11, 11:17 PM

No shields necessary from me, Heritage. I like my smaller (CHEAP) pigs just fine! There are some smaller "commercial" breeds available, but I'm still fascinated with the AHH and their diverse genetics. Don't reckon I'll get bored anytime soon.

When I can feed a pigger less than half a large coffee can a DAY and still get decent pork? I'm happy. I'm having fun.

My neighbor down the road is so interested in my model that she's wanting to turn her front hay pasture into pasture for 3-4 Hereford hogs from weaner to finish... She's got the room for them and I think they're gorgeous.

Me? I'm still playing with the AHH. I'm breeding for a normal-looking hog, just small sized. And having some great pork for the table right along...

HeritagePigs · #8 05/19/11, 11:50 PM

I was thinking of you when I posted and was hoping you wouldn't be offended. I really wish you the best but can imagine the grief you get from the pet people.

Gailann Schrader · #9 05/20/11, 12:05 AM

Amazingly enough? Once I started referring to them as AHH, everyone nodded their heads and just wandered off... As for the dyed-in-the-wool pet folks? I just don't hang with them...

Quite a few folks have looked at me and exclaimed, "Well, they ARE pigs!"

Other folks that have kept them as pets have told me that when they were little piggers, all was well. Then once they got to full size, went into heat, tore up their houses, grew tusks, etc. (all "normal" pig stuff) they quickly lost interest and simply wanted someone to TAKE THIS DARNED PIG!!!

Ya can't really make a pigger a house pet that well. Some folks do, but it depends on the pigger AND the people's dedication to insisting the pigger is a pet.

In the 4+ (or so) years I've been utilizing AHH, I've only had one individual (at the beginning of those years) go ballistic. She didn't spay her piggers, got sick of them because they constantly were in heat (due to uterine tumors) and didn't care what happened to them UNTIL they became sick on my place with uterine tumors because they weren't spayed. AND one suffered from "greasy pig" and shed her entire skin on her back. Distasteful. Those piggers became food for my beloved vultures and the wild folks ('yotes, etc.) that live on my place. One suffered before she died because I didn't quite understand what was happening and the other I put down humanely.

Other than that unfortunate episode, I've had more interest than bashing. I'm practical and evidently present it in practical terms. My AHH - even though I've had all kinds of diverse animals - tend towards VERY VERY lean. NO fat through the meat - just under the skin in a layer. Except one sow that was fatty under the skin to the nth but had (as usual for these animals evidently) ZERO marbling. Fascinating. I'm supplying a friend and his wife pork and they are amazed at how wonderful it is.

btw: My current HUGE sow is somewhat a pet, as is Lenny the boar. I treat them as valued livestock, which they are. They love marshmallows & cookies (especially Lenny) and the sow LOVES whey from cheesemaking. When it comes time to butcher Lenny, I will do so as humanely as possible and thank God for his sacrifice. It's my way.

Gailann Schrader · #10 05/20/11, 12:50 AM

Besides. I'm a Gleaner. I take that which other people do not want and make something out of it or utilize it somehow. Sometimes it doesn't work out well, but most times? It does. I've rescued horses, been given a mule, dogs, cats, ducks, chooks, etc. These have all been gifted to me at one point or another. Either free or low-cost. Sometimes I try things and then abandon them. Like domestic rabbits. Didn't appeal to me that much (but I love raising rabbits - just not eating them that much...)

It appeals to me and my frugal attitude to work with something other folks give up on... Anyway.

So some years ago I see pigs for FREE in the papers. Pet trade is glutted and over-blown with mutants. Regular piggers are too big for my no-backhoe life and too much meat for me being by myself. Hmmmm... I like pork, I am interested in piggers for the lard, the bacon (yum), the meat, the tilling, the genetics. I have no money, I have little open land and limited resources. Hmmmmm... Folks say AHH have little meat on them, but I realize that the BONE is also smaller. One person, One freezer, One small budget. AND the Gleaner's Bonus of no one wants them! Woo Hoo! I'm all over it...

My original thought with a friend was to raise them for Griller Pigs. Raise them and market them for the Summer Grill Season. MMMMMMMM... Whole roast pigger around 65# or so with a smaller amount of pork and a more localvore market. I've not done that because my litters aren't that large and I'm utilizing my pigs for myself.

I feed my dogs the bones after I've gleaned off the meat. My Dog of Doom likes the hide and the head (but it's too warm now and it spoils very quickly). I'm thinking about freezing strips of hide and attached small amounts of fat for her as a treat in the Summer. Yeah, it's a lot of hair, but it passes though her system or I could shave the hide (I skin my pigs since they're fairly hirsute). Anyway. Just some thoughts from the Frugal Fairy... LOL

Gailann Schrader · #11 05/20/11, 12:52 AM

Oh, and Brian/Heritage? I'm not offended at all.

Rogo · #12 05/20/11, 01:56 AM

=== Why would someone want to cross a hamp with a PB? ===

When they brought the PBP to the U.S., the gene pool wasn't very large. So those who were quite greedy, bred the PBP to hogs. Some evidently still do since the rescues are crowded with 300 - 400 pound PBPs that should weigh about 120 pounds.

Gailann Schrader · #13 05/20/11, 11:54 AM

Ya gotta check out some of the white papers written on the AHH...

very very very interesting... Here's the search (I have one paper saved called Impact of the use of exotic compared to local pig breeds on socioeconomic development and biodiversity in Vietnam)

http://www.google.com/search?q=Impac...x=&startPage=1

Enjoy!

oregon woodsmok · #14 05/20/11, 03:43 PM

Generally, the dam controls the size of the fetus, so (in theory at least) the pigs shouldn't get too big for her to give birth to them.

Full grown pot bellies aren't all that small. 150 pound sow is no midget. Commercial operations are getting pigs out of 150 pound sows. In fact, they can the sows when they get closer to full grown. They'd rather get 10 pigs out of a 150 pound mama sow than to get 10 pigs out of a 800 pound mama sow and have to feed an 800 pound sow.

Same with the boars. They are breed when they are half grown and then off to the sausage factory when they get large.

Gailann Schrader · #15 05/21/11, 12:39 AM

Well, I finally gave up and gave the bones off to the dogs. Normally, I would roast the bones, take off the meat and freeze for later. Tonight? No. I also decided I didn't want the spleen or the liver. I'm just too tired...

But what I have from that TRUE AHH barrow I butchered? 2- 7# fresh ham roasts, shank off, one package of shanks for soup (2# or so), one double loin-end roast with bones (prob. 5#), 20# ground pork, 10# "Indian" sausage (sage, rosemary, garlic, onion, cumin, garam masala and jalapenos), 15# rendered lard, two HUGE fresh sides (maybe 8# total) to make into bacon. About 60+ lbs. of meat & fresh side to deal with from just one pigger.

And I've butchered five (or was it six?) since November last... And I still have the big boar to butcher... That's a lot of quality pork in the freezer for me!

I'm pleased, the dogs are pleased, I'm taking a shower and going to bed! The freezer is full again and I have what I want without being overwhelmed...

Mare Owner · #16 05/21/11, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TanithT

Is it even possible for a young Hampshire boar to breed a large (150 lb+) female potbelly? Wouldn't that kill the mother, or at least cause more damage than seemed to be evident?

It is possible, sure. I won't draw any pictures of how it could have happened without major damage...

Nature can do amazing things, and it usually all works out and leaves us wondering how it happened.

Why would someone cross them? So many possibilities, maybe curiousity of the breeder, or a Houdini pig that got itself mated without anyone choosing for it to happen. I'd love to see pics and wonder why they think the piglets likely came out of a PB dam? Were Hamps the only other pigs on the farm?

TanithT · #17 05/26/11, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mare Owner

Why would someone cross them? So many possibilities, maybe curiousity of the breeder, or a Houdini pig that got itself mated without anyone choosing for it to happen. I'd love to see pics and wonder why they think the piglets likely came out of a PB dam? Were Hamps the only other pigs on the farm?

I don't know too many details of what happened prior to the auction, and the critters in question have already been dispersed, so no pics. But thanks all for helping to satisfy my curiosity! All I have are guesses, but at this point at least I have some better guesses.

What's AHH stand for?

Gailann Schrader · #18 05/27/11, 08:17 PM

Asian Heirloom Hog. The hogs from Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam - that area - are very diverse genetically. Some such as the I line were bred DOWN in size by USA americans as well as the Mong Cai to what we call PotBelly pigs. BUT. Those individuals that raise the PB pigs for pets don't quite get that they are HOGS. Pure and simple.

AND the pet trade tends to get rabidly incensed at those of us who eat PBpigs. Even though they are simply small hogs. So, I coined Asian Heirloom Hogs instead. Keeps the hate mail down, don't cha know... And makes everyone warm and happy that "we" are raising Asian Heirloom Hogs...

Gailann Schrader · #19 05/27/11, 08:47 PM

...a white paper I found describes a sow and boar that are Mong Cai-style hogs that seem to be what I have. Further investigation of this line comes up with the same result I have come up with. The Mong Cai sow is a nice, deep-bodied (bacon-style), slightly more plump hog. The Mong Cai BOAR, however, tends to be bony and angular. So the folks overseas have crossbred the Mong Cai sows with other boar lines. Just as I am planning on doing.

I have a very small AHH that is more on the lines of the USA American-bred PbP boar that intend to breed to the very large (think 200+lbs) Mong Cai I seem to have...

Apryl in ND · #20 05/27/11, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HeritagePigs

OK, good points, but basically that would be like trying to turn a PB into a guinea hog. See what I mean? I don't think that improving PBs would be worth it when there are other breeds that already meet the need.

My personal opinion is that PBs have no future as a pork producing breed. Too much improvement is needed. I like the idea of trying to rebrand them as AHHs, and I wish those breeders well, but I think the pet PB world has already ruined that plan.

They can be helpful around the farm but pretty much there are breeds that already exist that do better than PBs as small farm hogs. We had some that we rescued from a farm but they were pretty much worthless. (shields up...)

My guess is that these crosses came from a farmer that wasn't planning; it just happened.

If PBs did catch my fancy I think I would keep them pure just to protect the genetics from being manipulated by the pet breeders.

I'd love to have guinea hogs, but since there aren't any for states around and they cost a fortune, I'm planning on going with pot bellies and pot belly crosses. They're cheap and locally available to me. I imagine the crosses are probably hardier and have hybrid vigor also.

I just want a smaller pigs to raise for pork. I hear they have a lot more fat, but that's fine with me since I'll use the lard to make soap and cook with. Overwintering livestock here is no small feat. I figure the smaller the pig, the less feed I have to carry through 4 ft.+ snow drifts all winter.

I just found two one year old gilts down the road from me for $25 each. I only need one though. Anybody have any idea how the meat would be? I am thinking she'll be okay for sausage?