fired my donkey

SAHM · #1 08/02/12, 12:54 AM

We got a 6 year gelding standard donkey who I adored. I spent a month introducing him to the goats through the fences, and then slowly introducing them in person, then little by little bumping up how much time they were together

about a month ago they were together at free choice (the goats could come and go in and out of their paddock and barnyard, while the donk had to stay in the pasture and the goats had access to the pasture)

they had been together all that time, and then yesterday he attacked my queen goat

in his defense, he was not raised as a guard donkey, he had been around goats before, but his herd before our house was a herd of donkeys and horses. I thought I had done the introduction period correctly and had not thought he woudl have hurt his goats, I did not see it coming when I was introducing them or over the following month they were together- there were some warnings that he did not LOVE LOVE LOVE his goats, but I did not take the warnings seriously enough - he would toss his head at them sometimes if they annoyed him somehow, and if I was giving the goats love, he might show his teeth in jealousy, I did not take these warnings as seriously as I should have

I heard my goat scream - I ran down to the pasture as fast as I could, jumped the fence as I picked up a sturdy stick- chased him off of her, she was not getting up, the donkey did not run off, kept trying to get back at her- I got her to her feet, and finally after what felt like a dozen charges I fended off from him, I had her out of the fence
I never laid hand(or stick) on him, but I did not really want to turn my back on him either

I really lucked out that the nice family I got him from had said they would take him back if it did not work out- so they came back and got him that same day, I felt lucky to have met such a nice family and they were very understanding and compassionate

my goat has three open donkey bit marks along her spine on her back- and one swelling under her skin on her back, she is walking, eating, milking fine today, very tender to be touched, but I think she will be fine
my gutfeels stick thinking about seeing her in his mouth off the ground- she is a nubian goat, so she is not a tiny goat, but my herd queen

anyway- I am lucky my donkey had a safe place to return to - and I am very very very VERY lucky that my children were not involved in any way, and that I think my Anna goat will be fine

all the goats have been hiding in the barn since this, we are all pretty stirred up

like I said, in his defense, he was not raised for this reason, and it just did not work out,

now I am reading about other guardian options that are kid safe/family safe

thanks for listening

Chaty · #2 08/02/12, 07:45 AM

Donkeps dont do well with goats, that is why I have LGD's and a Llama. Llamas are better protectors and make sure if you get a male to have him neutered. Females work better than some males. Donkeys will kill goats even if they are raised with them. They think babies are a threat and most kill the babies or the older goats. For goat protection I use a Llama or a LGD. JMO

Fowler · #3 08/02/12, 07:57 AM

That's why I have dogs, donkey's will only protect themselves, and they can do more harm to goats and sheep then preditors. Llama's dont protect either, the preditor just sees a big animal in with the flock and may deter them for a while, but the reality is llamas cannot fight.

Get yourself an LGD, and train it from a puppy, it will take time but well worth it in the long run.

MDKatie · #4 08/02/12, 07:58 AM

Sorry this happened, and I"m so glad your goat is ok. This is exactly why I'll never recommend anyone keep a donkey as a guardian. They're just too dangerous. Donkeys are smart and get bored easily and take it out on the animals. GLAD you were able to come to her rescue!

possom · #5 08/02/12, 08:08 AM

Donkeys and mules are headstrong animals. They are not like horses. Sometimes they need a good whopping to get their attention. I am not in any way saying beat an animal. That is cruel and uncalled for. But if u r working a team of mules u have a check line for a reason. Attitude adjustments are needed from time to time. You can't baby them.

If you would have taken a 2x4 into the pasture with you and hit him broadside with it with everything you had he would have gotten the point about messing with the goats.

MDKatie · #6 08/02/12, 08:14 AM

Oh, and just another comment. Just because the donkey attacked the goat doesn't mean he/she will hurt humans. I had a donkey that was hell on smaller animasl, but never even looked crossways at a human.

Fowler · #7 08/02/12, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by possom

Donkeys and mules are headstrong animals. They are not like horses. Sometimes they need a good whopping to get their attention. I am not in any way saying beat an animal. That is cruel and uncalled for. But if u r working a team of mules u have a check line for a reason. Attitude adjustments are needed from time to time. You can't baby them.

If you would have taken a 2x4 into the pasture with you and hit him broadside with it with everything you had he would have gotten the point about messing with the goats.

Are you serious?

possom · #8 08/02/12, 09:13 AM

Yes I am serious. There is a difference in working animals and pets. A lot of people don't realize the difference. Try breaking out a team of mules with soft words and hugs and see how far that gets u.

Don't yell and scream at them. You do have to be stern and they should look at you as the dominate animal. Until it starts looking at you as its master it will do whatever it pleases.

Chief Cook · #9 08/02/12, 09:17 AM

Sorry that happened to you and yours. Glad that you didn't get hurt and that your goat will be alright. We had a very large donkey male that was great with people, but didn't like dogs. Kinda touchy with a pack of hounds. One day I noticed that he didn't worry one little bit about the hounds anymore and got to wondering about the change. When I asked DH what had gone on during they're last hunt... Mr. Bill (donkey) got nasty with a couple of dogs and his rider, (dad) gave him a spanking that he wouldn't soon forget! Mr. Bill never got nasty with anything other than a coyote from that day on. I was afraid that after his "lesson" he wouldn't run off a coyote, but it seems that he could tell the difference. He turned out to be a wonderful old character and we had him all the rest of his life. I cried like a baby when we had to put him down. I don't think I would have trusted him with a goat. I hope you can find a good guardian for your herd, I think you and your herd have suffered enough trauma. Good luck and best wishes.

Naderhood · #10 09/09/12, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by possom

Yes I am serious. There is a difference in working animals and pets. A lot of people don't realize the difference. Try breaking out a team of mules with soft words and hugs and see how far that gets u.

Don't yell and scream at them. You do have to be stern and they should look at you as the dominate animal. Until it starts looking at you as its master it will do whatever it pleases.

I agree with this. My grandpa used a team of mules to plow his field and donkeys for farm defense and every once in a while he'd have to reiterate that he was in charge. It seemed like every other day a mule would try to test the boundaries. Its not abuse, just a firm hand.

mekasmom · #11 09/09/12, 10:31 PM

I'm sorry your doe was injured.
I would think about giving her some antibiotics if she were mine to ward off infection if the skin is broken.

greg_n_ga · #12 09/19/12, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by possom

Yes I am serious. There is a difference in working animals and pets. A lot of people don't realize the difference. Try breaking out a team of mules with soft words and hugs and see how far that gets u.

Don't yell and scream at them. You do have to be stern and they should look at you as the dominate animal. Until it starts looking at you as its master it will do whatever it pleases.

Yep !!

JasoninMN · #13 09/19/12, 01:46 PM

Let me get this straight. You don't yell and scream, you don't praise or be soft, but you do hit them with a 2x4 yet you don't beat them, yet your expected to give them a whooping. Wow am I confused.

SFM in KY · #14 09/19/12, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JasoninMN

Let me get this straight. You don't yell and scream, you don't praise or be soft, but you do hit them with a 2x4 yet you don't beat them, yet your expected to give them a whooping. Wow am I confused.

Have you ever watched the alpha mare in a herd of horses 'discipline' another horse for the infraction of her rules? It's usually by kicking, one or both hind feet ... and believe me, there is absolutely no way the average person can hit a horse or donkey as hard as the 'herd boss' will kick ... rump, ribs,shoulders ... avoid legs or head.

It's rarely necessary, but when it is you need to establish yourself as the alpha of the herd and you need to do it forcefully. That way it is more likely to be a one-time necessity.

JasoninMN · #15 09/19/12, 03:18 PM

So are donkeys really that unintelligent that they can't tell the different between another donkey and a human with a 2x4? I have my doubts thats the case. Maybe I am wrong and they are capable of understanding human anger and reasoning, but I would need proof they are capable of that level of intelligence. I really bet after you walk out into the field and strike them with the 2x4 they go "Geez maybe I should stop being such an a-- and quit chasing the goats." Yes the pun was intentional. I doubt they make the connection and I bet the only thing taught has been to run to the far end of the field.

Otter · #16 09/20/12, 12:36 AM

Actually Jason, have you been around a lot of equines?
Think of it like this. A stallion or jack WILL kill a foal - unless he's had a mare or jenny beat the snot out of him for going after one. Then, quite often, he'll never look sideways at one again, and most stallions raised in a herd situation (where mares will leave hoofprints on him fairly regularly) will then take a cue and protect and even nurture the little ones.

So this scenario DOES have firm basis in their natural relationships.
Of course they can tell the difference between another donkey and a human. That doesn't matter. If you interact with any animal, there are basically 4 roles you can play. Dominant, Subordinate, Predator, Prey.
If you value your life, you want to fall into the Dominant or Predator categories.

I am a 5'2" woman. There is no way that I can hit even a 400 pound donkey as hard as his momma would kick him. She will kick him hard enough to leave a literal hoofprint you can see a day later, and if she decides to bite, she will take a chunk out of his hide.
Now, neither I, nor anyone here, is recommending for anyone to tie down a donkey and beat him with a 2x4 because he upset you. But I can tell you without the faintest iota of shame that if I had a donkey who charged at me, even if he was really charging at the goat behind me, I would not have hesitated to bust a stick over him as hard as I possibly could.
And, having worked with equines a LOT, I can promise you that 1) I still wouldn't be hitting him as hard as another beastie his size, 2) he would not try that again and 3) he wouldn't be at all afraid of me, much less run to the other end of the field when he saw me coming.
In fact, he will be a far happier and more secure creature, then one who has NOT been given a clear message of "I am dominant, and you will not question that" the same as a dog would. I know you've met dogs who have been nagged at and given mixed signals until they were neurotic. Donkeys and horses are just as unhappy and far more dangerous in the same situation.

Cannon_Farms · #17 09/20/12, 07:32 AM

My vet said to me just the other day, hes had to treat more donkey on goat attacks in his years in practice then predator on goat. we have tried 4 different donkeys (i really like donkeys) all but one attacked the goats, the other just simply wouldnt let them eat.

JasoninMN · #18 09/20/12, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otter

Actually Jason, have you been around a lot of equines?
Think of it like this. A stallion or jack WILL kill a foal - unless he's had a mare or jenny beat the snot out of him for going after one. Then, quite often, he'll never look sideways at one again, and most stallions raised in a herd situation (where mares will leave hoofprints on him fairly regularly) will then take a cue and protect and even nurture the little ones.

So this scenario DOES have firm basis in their natural relationships.
Of course they can tell the difference between another donkey and a human. That doesn't matter. If you interact with any animal, there are basically 4 roles you can play. Dominant, Subordinate, Predator, Prey.
If you value your life, you want to fall into the Dominant or Predator categories.

I am a 5'2" woman. There is no way that I can hit even a 400 pound donkey as hard as his momma would kick him. She will kick him hard enough to leave a literal hoofprint you can see a day later, and if she decides to bite, she will take a chunk out of his hide.
Now, neither I, nor anyone here, is recommending for anyone to tie down a donkey and beat him with a 2x4 because he upset you. But I can tell you without the faintest iota of shame that if I had a donkey who charged at me, even if he was really charging at the goat behind me, I would not have hesitated to bust a stick over him as hard as I possibly could.
And, having worked with equines a LOT, I can promise you that 1) I still wouldn't be hitting him as hard as another beastie his size, 2) he would not try that again and 3) he wouldn't be at all afraid of me, much less run to the other end of the field when he saw me coming.
In fact, he will be a far happier and more secure creature, then one who has NOT been given a clear message of "I am dominant, and you will not question that" the same as a dog would. I know you've met dogs who have been nagged at and given mixed signals until they were neurotic. Donkeys and horses are just as unhappy and far more dangerous in the same situation.

I have never had a horse. I have had plenty of donkeys. I think a lot of being said is being based off of horses and not donkeys which are much different animals. It seems horse people have a hard time understanding that though and speak of donkeys as if they are a horse. If we are going even father and compare training a donkey to training a dog your miss a real key component of training and that is correcting the animal at the time its doing something wrong. Have you ever had your donkeys chasing goats? I have and I would like to see someone go out there and hit their donkey with a 2x4 while its chasing them. Either two scenarios are going to play out, the donkey quits chasing and comes to great you which would be a bad time to hit it or the donkey keeps chasing so your running after it with a 2x4 risking your own safety. That is if you can even catch it and hit it in the first place I run every day and still couldn't catch a donkey. Very few donkeys are reliable around animals smaller them and their guarding abilities are over rated as they usually end up hurting or killing the animals they are "guarding." Now even if you got out there and hit that donkey while its chasing a goat the chances of it not repeating the behavior again is not good anyways. They are not dogs, they do not live to please us and the next time you turn your back it will be chasing them again. Hit the donkey all you want, it smart enough to know your the reason its getting hit not the goat. I have had some success putting holes in my cattle panels that the goats can escape through or running a hot wire set 15-20 feet in the existing pasture so the smaller animals have a safe zone they can run into. Safest bet, don't mix em. Don't get mad at the donkey for being a donkey.

Otter · #19 09/20/12, 01:14 PM

Jason, no one ever said that donkeys are just like horses, dogs or anything else. But they do have a social structure very like horses and certain things do apply to both species, and equines in general. A zebra isn't a horse either, but zebra stallions fight to win a harem in the same way, and a zebra stallion raised outside a harem situation (and the rare individual in one) will kill foals until a mare teaches him not to.
It's all the same enough to apply.
Dogs aren't wolves, but some things carry over.

Now, I'm not sure where you feel anyone indicated trying to run down a donkey while waving a stick is a good method of discipline?
I (and, I assume, the others) were referring to this;

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAHM

chased him off of her, she was not getting up, the donkey did not run off, kept trying to get back at her- I got her to her feet, and finally after what felt like a dozen charges I fended off from him, I had her out of the fence

The goat was down and not moving, the donkey was in the act of savaging it. If you caught him one right then, I'm not sure how much better you could get at correcting the animal at the time.

Then, the donkey dd not back down, but charged this woman, who was standing over her downed goat, not once, but over and over. If a jack, jenny, gelding, mule, mare, stallion, whatever, charged into MY space for ANY reason, you can bet I'd have gone all kinds of Dominant Mare on their butts with a stick, a 2x4, a rock, whatever was handy. As much for simple self-defense as for discipline.

Grazer · #20 09/20/12, 04:18 PM

Now I understand how a stubborn donkey that's causing problems might frustrate someone, but hitting them is not the way to go.
With donkeys you want them to trust you (well that part goes for every domestic animal of course) and see you as a friend.
You want them to think that everything you ask them to do is a good idea.

Petting and verbal praise works as a very good reward and reinforcement for donkeys.
Donkeys don't like being dominated and if you cause him pain, he will associate that pain with you.
They are very intelligent animals, so like I said, the best way to train a donkey is by showing him he can trust you and that you are his friend.
You have to learn to read his body language so he can learn to understand what you want from him.
Yes it takes lots of patience & time to train donkey this way, but it's really worth it.

mary,tx · #21 09/20/12, 07:53 PM

I'd fire my donkey but I don't have any place to send her.

SFM in KY · #22 09/21/12, 08:31 AM

The thing is that too many people confuse respect with fear. My horses aren't afraid of me, but they do respect me and I can work with them in a herd safely because of that.

Work with enough different animals and you will learn to 'read' the level of discipline required to correct and instill respect for each individual. Just like people, they are all different ... I've had horses that a harsh 'no' and a quick leadline flick was all you needed. I've had others that truly did require the equivalent of a 2 x 4, applied firmly, to establish the same level of respect.

tyusclan · #23 09/21/12, 08:42 PM

Donkeys can make excellent guard animals for sheep or goats, but you MUST use jennets. Jacks or johns will get aggressive with the animals they're supposed to guard.

Cannon_Farms · #24 09/22/12, 08:48 PM

the first one didn't listen to me trying to beat him off my goat with a big stick, he did to my 9, still haven't got that mud pit spot back to normal. I love donkeys but I will most likely never have another, defiantly not with the goats

Mulegirl · #25 09/23/12, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFM in KY

The thing is that too many people confuse respect with fear. My horses aren't afraid of me, but they do respect me and I can work with them in a herd safely because of that.

Work with enough different animals and you will learn to 'read' the level of discipline required to correct and instill respect for each individual. Just like people, they are all different ... I've had horses that a harsh 'no' and a quick leadline flick was all you needed. I've had others that truly did require the equivalent of a 2 x 4, applied firmly, to establish the same level of respect.

I grew up with both mules and horses, SFM, and I'll echo Jason and Grazer's comments about them being different . . . dominance doesn't work as well with donkeys and mules, and can actually completely screw them up. We had a couple where the trainers had used dominance techniques, and one of the pair was so skittish as a result that it took us years to be able to simply walk up to her in the pasture. Once you caught her she was fine (though she didn't want her ears touched *at all*), but still. The mules were definitely smarter than our horses, and trust was incredibly important with them--if they thought you didn't know enough to be riding them, they would stop dead and you wouldn't go anywhere. So in that way, yes, you had to show them that you were in charge, but once they had that down, they generally didn't test you without a good reason (and this is me remembering riding them when I was a child--from about age 8 to 16). For instance, the one time our oldest stopped so dead that I had to just turn her around and ride home while my sister and our friends went on, it turned out that Queenie actually had a nasty cut on her fetlock that I hadn't noticed. By contrast, many horses I've ridden had to have a brief re-establishment of who's-in-charge at the beginning of each ride, especially if someone else had ridden them in the meantime. That was simply something that didn't happen with our mules.

On the "not such good guard animals for goats" side of things: ours did, at one point, run down our "pet" billy goat and kill him--we'd tried really hard to keep everyone separated but the stupid goat insisted on getting out of his pen. At some point, I'm considering moving one of those mules over to our property and possibly confining him with goats again, but he is nearly 35 now, and has slowed down considerably . . .

SFM in KY · #26 09/24/12, 02:46 PM

This is interesting, as I've never been around donkeys at all. I have owned one mule myself and handled/ridden a mule belonging to my cousin a lot, but both were trained when I was around them so no experience with training and the differences. The two I was around were in some ways definitely smarter than some horses I've been around particularly where their own safety was concerned, much more likely to avoid potentially dangerous situations. They were also much smarter about avoiding work they didn't choose to do than horses.

Mulegirl · #27 09/29/12, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFM in KY

This is interesting, as I've never been around donkeys at all. I have owned one mule myself and handled/ridden a mule belonging to my cousin a lot, but both were trained when I was around them so no experience with training and the differences. The two I was around were in some ways definitely smarter than some horses I've been around particularly where their own safety was concerned, much more likely to avoid potentially dangerous situations. They were also much smarter about avoiding work they didn't choose to do than horses.

Yes, that they certainly are! If you can persuade them that the work is necessary, they'll do it, but if they think it's not and you can't make them think otherwise, good luck getting them to move . . . we had several funny moments that way with one of ours when I did small-time coon-jumping competitions with him. Popeye was a great little jumper--he could jump fences a few inches higher than his withers when he wanted--but he was also smart enough to wonder why the human got to walk around the fence when he was expected to go over it. I used to have to distract him with Saltines (for some reason one of his favorite snacks) in order to get him to forget about going around and instead go over the jump. We have some pretty funny pictures of 12-year-old me having disagreements with him about the whole idea . . .