Miss placed aggression

Ness · #1 07/26/12, 09:05 AM

So far everyone I've talked to about this has been perfectly useless :P.

Our LGD is almost 2, so he's still a bit of a baby, we got him at 18months and I've seen a HUGE difference in him in those few months! Definitely growing into himself.

He was kept as a "guard dog" (/ pet) from a year or so on, previous to that I don't know where he came from but his last owners said he was not well treated (covered in mange, etc.). He clearly has been beaten before. A harsh word really puts him in his place, I don't need to go further. He's a great guard dog though, now that he's learning what he's supposed to do, and seems much happier now he's got a job!

One problem he's still having is miss-placed aggression towards my horse. Now, I should premiss that by saying while the aggression is miss-placed, he's also very correct that my mare is a

and would chase the goats & sheep off their food until the dog stepped in. She doesn't do it any more when the dog is around; but Thor is continuing to go after her whenever he thinks she's too close to the sheep/goats or he just is having a cranky day or something. In the winter when we're feeding you can see him put everyone on their own pile of hay and he makes sure they stay where he wants them (cows included).

Now, obviously we could keep the dogs/sheep/goats separate from the horses, but that would go against what we're trying do.

My major concern is that either Thor will injure one of the horses (vet bills $$$$) or the horses will injure him. She's already kicked him in the mouth once, no damage, but I'm not sure he's really backed off much since that happened.

Right now the only way I can get him to stop when he's going after her is to yell at him until I get his attention. I can't step in and grab him 'cause I'm going to get kicked in the head by accident, or bit.

Tieing him wouldn't be a solution because it's not a chasing problem.

Starting to think I should get (small!) rocks to throw at him, that sounds silly but once you get him out of that mind-frame he'll back right off her and leave her alone again.

They may eventually work it out, and if anything it's actually quite a good way to keep the peace. My mare has always caused issues in herds because of how dominant she is.

So... helmet for the dog?

We've gone from this happening every day to maybe once a week, so it maybe a non-issue in a few more months. The dog also only has an issue with the mare, I've never once seen him chase my gelding, but my gelding would never chase any of the other animals.

Anyone dealt with this before?

thaiblue12 · #2 07/26/12, 10:31 AM

No I have not seen it before because I do not own horses for various reasons. The more I read about them on here and the longer I live near a horse boarding facility the long the list gets

He is doing his job and I would not throw rocks at him or etc. She is the aggressor and a threat to the goats and she clearly has problems in general since she starts with the herd as well.
Do you have her for a reason? I sell problem animals. I have no time to deal with them. I sell with full disclosure of course and for less just to get them out of here.
If you have her for a reason I would lock her in a pen alone or with a horse she does not bully. She is the one who needs separation, I would not tie the dog as that makes him next to useless and he cannot do his job. Not everyone needs to be separated, it is just the mare who is causing it and she needs to be the one to stop. The dog especially considering his upbringing is doing a really good job and most people would be happy to have an LGD like that.

One or both of them are learning since the incidents are decreasing but one good kick and she may kill him, or a goat. I know there are horses who love goats and are good with them, but your mare is not one of them

Not sure if you can train a horse to accept them or not but the LGD is not the problem, she is.

Batt · #3 07/26/12, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiblue12

the LGD is not the problem, she is.

^^^This ^^^
Sounds to me likeThor is doing exactly what he is supposed to do. I'd be taking a long look at the mare.

wendle · #4 07/26/12, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ness

One problem he's still having is miss-placed aggression towards my horse. Now, I should premiss that by saying while the aggression is miss-placed, he's also very correct that my mare is a

and would chase the goats & sheep off their food until the dog stepped in. She doesn't do it any more when the dog is around; but Thor is continuing to go after her whenever he thinks she's too close to the sheep/goats or he just is having a cranky day or something. In the winter when we're feeding you can see him put everyone on their own pile of hay and he makes sure they stay where he wants them (cows included).

Your dog is doing his job, and probably keeping the sheep from getting bitten or kicked by the horse. I have a mini horse who is horrible around the feeder with the sheep. This can be a real issue, especially with new lambs or when the ewes are pregnant.
I would feed your horse separate and save the dog and sheep some grief. Your dog is probably pretty defensive about the big animal and might feel the need to reinforce his stand protecting the sheep and goats occasionally. One of my lgds will act similarly with the cows. They are on the farm and tolerated, but better mind their manners around the sheep.

hhhandyman · #5 07/26/12, 11:10 AM

We've had good luck with shock collars (used properly) to train our LGD's to cease and desist with unwanted behavior, especially those pooches that develop "selective hearing" when they they get 100 feet (or more) away from you. The advantage you gain with a good quality collar is that they normally have 3 functions: warning tone only, tone and adjustable shock level (you preset from 1 to 9), and the third button jumps the shock level by 2 levels above the preset, plus tone. Range is good - up to 100 yards or more with good batteries (do not buy from the dollar store).

It doesnt take long for the dog to learn that the warning tone, alone, is enough reason to stop the unwanted behavior.

Maura · #6 07/26/12, 11:22 AM

You need to go out with him and be near him when this happens. Not involved, just close enough. Dogs have an area of obedience, and if you are out of that area he isn't going to listen to you until you have trained him close, then gradually farther away.

First thing you need to do is train him to either come or stop at the sound of a whistle. A whistle travels much farther than your voice. Use his kibble and petting to get him to respond to your whistle from 3 feet away, then 5 feet, then 10 feet. Do this twice a day, each session extending the range another five feet. Then play this game everywhere in the pasture. If you train him near the house but not in the far end of the pasture, he will probably not respond to you when he is in the far end of the pasture.

Once you have a whistle on him you can call him off the mare. Over time, he will learn how long or how far he should chase the mare then stop chasing. I don't think you should use an electric collar on him for two reasons. First, he has been physically abused and it could undo much of your work at making him feel safe. Second, you may end up with a dog who won't chase the mare off.

Edit: If he is not treat motivated, hold his breakfast off for an hour, then use the kibble as the treats. Ear rubbing is a good pet.

Ness · #7 07/26/12, 11:44 AM

I should have explained better. Although at first the mare was going after the goats & sheep over food (more just displaying that she's boss by pinning her ears), she doesn't do it any more because Thor stopped her. My issue was him continuing to get upset at her, when say, she walks past the goats to go get a drink of water. It's great that he's defending them but she isn't directly threatening them. She'd never actually kick or hurt one of the smaller animals, she's all bark no bite.

Thor does seem to be able to read her body language, he's never once gone after the gelding, and will allow him to come in near the sheep or goats. So it's more that Thor & the mare are having an issue, not that he has an issue with horses or vice versa.

The shock collar was my thinking, since I'm not able to get physically between them. But Maura made some very good points, he has learned to trust me, I don't want to break that. The whistle training is a good idea, but like most LGDs the selective hearing is a serious issue, so this may take awhile!

Have you done this successfully with other LGDs? We don't let him out because he'll wander off, he won't go far but he's very hard to catch again (once he thinks he's in trouble he's not coming within 20' of you!); so this type of training would probably help with the few times he does squeeze out. (I can catch him now, actually he usually comes and seeks me out - but for the first little while it was a bit of a problem)

I just need to be able to break him out of that 'mode' because he gets into this spiral with the mare, where he's barking, she's trying to kick him and it just escalates. Once I get his attention he'll stop right away, she calms down & there is no issue any more.

A lot of this issue does relate to that he hadn't received 'proper' training as a pup, so he's still really just learning his job and what he's supposed to do. We've had a few incidents of chasing I've had to deal with too, but that he got over very quickly!

wolffeathers · #8 07/26/12, 11:58 AM

If you are going to use the shock collar, you have to make sure the dog does not associate you with the collar.

To do this, you will need to put the collar on and just let him wear it while it is off and do no correcting. Let this go on for a week or so. Take the collar off and charge it, turn it back on, and then place it back on the dog. Since he is sensitive use a lower setting. When he starts to chase the mare, shock him, but be SURE not to give him any cue that "YOU" are correcting him. Don't make any noise, don't try to call him off verbally, just give him a prompt shock. With collars you can do it from a distance, further breaking the association of you and the collar.

"You" are not correcting him, the collar is and his own behavior is the trigger.

When dogs draw an association between their handler and their collar it is usually becuase the owner slaps the collar on and goes to shocking, often trying to verbally correct the dog as they do it. They'll yell "no" and then shock the dog. The downside is the dog goes "master yells no and then I feel pain". This is why it's absolutely imperative when doing adversion training to not verbally cue/correct/call the dog.

He sounds like a WONDERFUL dog who does his job perfect. The mare presented herself a threat, he neutralized the threat(by training her to not charge the herd), but he remembers that she is a threat and continues to treat her as such.

wendle · #9 07/26/12, 12:00 PM

Even though she isn't directly bothering the goats at the time of getting water the lgd still sees her as a threat. It would be similar to letting a coyote walk right by the sheep without doing anything because he might not be attacking them at this time.

susanneb · #10 07/26/12, 12:56 PM

Is your reason for not separating them that you are hoping to balance grazing styles within your pasture rotation?

Your mare is not going anywhere (mine wouldn't, either) and you wouldn't want her isolated from your gelding, could you modify your pasture rotation, keeping your horses separate from the other livestock, but rotating so that each pasture gets a break from horse grazing and then from the ruminants?

My goal is always to accept each animal as who he/she is and to work with that. Neither your mare nor Thor are wrong, but you as their caretaker need to work according to their personalities. Since Thor sees your mare as a threat, I would bet that by separating the horses, that threat would disappear and Thor would eventually accept her.

Ness · #11 07/26/12, 01:15 PM

Yes Susanne, but we don't have our fences set up yet ($$$) which is why I can't separate them right now. In future it won't be as much of a problem.

Thanks for the input guys, it's been very helpful. Everyone previously has just told me to remove Thor from the paddock & not allow him to interact with the animals... yah, that made TONS of sense!

He is an amazing dog, we're so lucky to have him here

. It constantly amazes me when he reads her body language and chases the mare off, he's just a dog, I don't know how he knows enough that she's going into bossy mode! (And we've got smart dogs, all collie crosses, they can't read the horses).

I still want to teach him that horses are okay in case we have a foal here one day, but really he's so bright he'll probably know enough that the foal isn't going to hurt the other animals & accept that as one of his babies.

I'm going to work with him on the whistling, maybe he'll hear it a bit better then me just yelling (/barking to his ears) at him.

thaiblue12 · #12 07/26/12, 03:26 PM

I would not shock or correct him. He is doing his job and you do not want to punish him for it.

Now since you want him to stop thinking her getting water is not a threat I would re-direct him, like Maura said with food starting close then moving farther away.

My boys will come to me when called, I use food. Treats, raw chicken legs, a piece of cheese, whatever. I called, they came and are rewarded for it. I can call them from any and everything they are doing except for when they are chasing coyotes. Then they would not hear me and I do not bother to try.

You have to balance this carefully so he does not think he is doing something wrong and the mare will take advantage of his compliance and start chasing them away from food again. Since he is doing it far less they may eventually come to a truce unless she starts with the smaller animals again. If she does you do want him to stop her.

DaniR1968 · #13 07/26/12, 11:55 PM

Thor sounds like a great dog and is doing a fabulous job. I would not use a shock collar on him in this situation.

Try to keep an eye on things. He's getting the horse trained. Before long, he won't pay much attention to her. You said it used to be a daily thing. Now it's once a week. The horse might still be trying stuff when you don't see. or at least is thinking about it.

lexa · #14 07/27/12, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wendle

Even though she isn't directly bothering the goats at the time of getting water the lgd still sees her as a threat. It would be similar to letting a coyote walk right by the sheep without doing anything because he might not be attacking them at this time.

Exactly!
I think you expect too much out of your dog. He can not differentiate her intentions and it is not fair to expect him to do so. He is doing his job. He sees her as a treat and lets her know that she is not allowed near his pack.

As far as him knowing that horses are Ok, he already knows that they are OK since he is fine with some of them and doesn't chase her all the time. If you get a foal from this mare you might have a problem and should separate horses from goats since mares tend to get nastier when they have foals.

MonsterMalak · #15 07/27/12, 08:16 AM

Wow, this is a difficult call.
To correct a dog from doing what they were bred to do is difficult.

You will have to work on her perception of the horses threat, and possibly alter the horses access to the goats feeding area.

Might put up a small corral area that the goats and dogs can get through and eat in peace, but that the horse will not be able to enter. Then maybe the LGD will figure out it is the goats safe place.

Being with her to reasure acceptable behavior from the horse might help.
LGDs are very intelligent, and a scolding may not work as well as telling them the horse is OK.

Good Luck

Ness · #16 08/17/12, 10:06 PM

I wanted to thank everyone again for their input.

Turns out I was worrying too much (I tend to do that) and they sorted it out for themselves. The dog still occasionally barks at the horse, but she usually backs down pretty quickly (he's got her trained now!!) and he moves on to other things. I'll have to make sure there is access to at least 2 round-bales at time over winter, but I think other then that we'll be just fine

.

I've also learned I have generally been given some very terrible advice on LGDs from someone who does not keep an LGD, but a pyrenees guard dog really. I've learned through experience it was all hot air, so, I think I'm going to have more questions

lexa · #17 08/22/12, 01:01 PM

Great news about the dog!

Ness · #18 08/22/12, 01:19 PM

Actually, yesterday I saw my mare peacefully eating hay with her BF, with her ears forward! A first in her entire bossy life

. So, I am now offering LGD horse-whispering for alpha mares...