Doing Some research before purchasing a LGD

jenisis77 · #1 07/19/12, 04:17 PM

I have been doing some research before purchasing a LGD but sometimes all of these various breeds can be so daunting. I am looking for a LGD that will live outside in her dog house (I prefer a female dog). I have 3 acres of land and there will be livestock (within the next year) consisting of chickens, turkeys, goats, and a pig. I also have a small dog that is a female Papillon breed and 2 indoor cats. We have 2 small children under the age of 5 as well. Any suggestions would be very welcomed.

Also, it would be great to have a LGD that does not have tremendous health issues as I have read, it seems that so many of them do. Thanks.

mekasmom · #2 07/19/12, 05:43 PM

I always think GP or anatolian are a good first choice. They are easy to find, less expensive, and both are good with kids and all other pets. The Anatolian has two advantages: it doesn't bark all night every night, and it doesn't have that coat. But they are just a bit harder to find than GP and usually more expensive, although their numbers in the states are increasing.
Maremmas are easy to find further north if you are from a northern state. And they are a lot like pyrs minus the barking. They are beautiful, good LGDs, but still have that coat although not as bad as GP. They are usually more expensive than GP though.
Other LGD breeds are usually less popular in number and therefore more expensive.

jenisis77 · #3 07/19/12, 08:26 PM

I thought about an Anatolian, it seemed as though that would be the type of dog that would fit my needs but I have heard that they are a nightmare to train and that they can become uncontrollable. I have even heard of them being given away to Anatolian rescues due to the fact that they actually will eat the chickens they are supposed to be protecting. When I read that a few times from various people in the past 2 weeks, I was afraid to get an Anatolian. I am not opposed to spending a lot of time with the dog in order to acclimate her into a training routine but hearing all the drawbacks from this dog I was a bit apprehensive to locate possible breeders.

JasoninMN · #4 07/20/12, 12:18 AM

Have you done a search on here to see how many great Pyrenees and other LGDS eat chickens? Its the training not the breed that determines if they fail or succeed.

Since you only have three acres I would not recommend a LGD. I would recommend good fencing since fences last longer and cost less in the long run. Fences also don't bark, dig, escape and go wandering, and they make for great neighbors too!

wendle · #5 07/20/12, 06:56 AM

I would recommend electric poultry fencing. In the long run it will be cheaper than a dog and probably good enough for your smaller setup. Electric Fencing for Poultry - Premier1Supplies

jenisis77 · #6 07/20/12, 09:07 AM

Thanks but we are looking for a LGD. Thanks for the advice concerning an electric poultry fence but we are in the middle of the woods in thick wooded area. I understand that training is pertinent concerning any LGD and as I stated above I will dedicate the time to this but I have been reading not good things concerning Anatolians and that breed does not interest me at this point. I am a realist and really just want comments concerning possible breeds for my needs. Thanks.

pancho · #7 07/20/12, 09:50 AM

Another vote for spending the money on fencing instead of a LGD.
3 acreas is just not enough room for one.

Wolf Flower · #8 07/20/12, 10:37 AM

If you have an LGD, you MUST have fencing, or your LGD will be GONE.

I have an Akbash Dog and only one acre. He does great. He's mellow and laid back, but we haven't had a predator attack since we got him. He's a good guardian, barks at anything that's close to the fence, but doesn't bark all night--he only sounds off when there's something there, unlike a lot of GP who bark just to bark. He is good with visitors, children, and other animals that I bring onto the property. Has a great, short coat that doesn't require a lot of grooming.

I also have a six foot perimeter fence. If I didn't have it, he'd have been gone a long time ago. It's not that he wants to get away from us--he LOVES us--it's just that he wants to expand his territory. But he has not attempted to get over, under, or through the 6 foot fence. The four and five foot fences that separate the goat pens from the garden from the lawn, he sails right over.

I'd recommend a male. I have heard the Akbash people say that their males are a lot like mine--laid back, gentle, accepting of visitors. While their females are more "guardy", not so good with strangers, and not as easygoing. I guess it really depends on what you want, but if your current housedog is female, it's a good idea for your LGD to be male, as females tend to fight more.

Regarding chickens--that is a training issue, not so much a breed issue. Any young, active dog will probably want to chase the chickens at some point; you can't just throw a pup out into the farm and expect it not to get into mischief. Your best bet would be to find an older, proven LGD that has learned not to chase chickens. I see them on my local craigslist all the time--people lose their farm, have to move, or whatever--and must find new homes for their LGDs.

Batt · #9 07/20/12, 12:09 PM

I like what WolfFlower said for the most part, and I guess there are a lot of GP's that bark a lot. However, for the most part, when ours barks, there is something to bark at. Coyotes howling or other dogs barking at night is enough to set him off. Then again he considers them threats, and who am I to argue? However, a Pyres bark is different, not as loud and yippee as some dogs. Just Low range (carries farther), authoritative and obviously "Big Dog" sound.

When we shut the lights off at night, he will bark for 5-10 minutes to let everything know that "now he is in charge and don't come around or else". Honestly, it sounds just like that. He also uses several different barks to control the goats. Let there be no doubt, he is in charge, and they had better listen.

Pyrenees, at least the one's I know, have several different barks. Especially a "Get yourselves here!" bark he uses when he senses danger...You should see them come running.

Pyrenees are very independent thinkers, but when they figure out what you want, they are very helpful. Gotta tell a story:

Recently one of the very flighty does decided to have her twins way down in the woods. Usually when I pick up the babies, the momma will follow, but not this time. I tried for several minutes to get them to follow me to the barn. No Luck! Then Batt figured out what I wanted, barked once, she came to him immediately, and he moved her all the way to the barn. Then he just laid down and looked at me as if saying "Is that what you wanted Doc?"

He will let the little goats play "king of the big bad dog" on his back. (see my avatar), and completely ignores the chickens. Batt has about 4-5 acres to roam and seems quite happy as long as he has his family to guard. but he still needs a fence. We have a 4' fence with a single barbed wire around the top for the goat pasture, and he seems quite content. If you want to find the goats, look for the big white patch.

I'm sure he is hot in the Summer, who isn't? But he will find a shady patch, and dig a nice cool hole to lay in during the heat of the day. Then again his charges aren't too active at that time either. Lots of fresh water available too. He sheds ALOT during the late spring/early summer. You could weave a carpet on the sheds. But he sure is pretty with his new fur.

If you get a good one, lots of dogs will do. I'm sticking to GP's.

jenisis77 · #10 07/20/12, 01:40 PM

Hi, everyone. Again thanks so much for the feedback. Currently, we have 3 acres but may be closing shortly on 5 more so we will have a total of 8 acres (hopefully, nothing goes wrong with the closing). We have 3 acres fenced on 3 sides and are looking to get the last side done once we acquire the other 5. I know we are not living in a large area of space but we are living in a very remote part of MO with heavily wooded area (none of which is pasture land). We have no neighbors for quite a bit, just heavily wooded land everywhere and lakes.

jenisis77 · #11 07/20/12, 01:44 PM

Thanks so much Batt. That assessment of Pyrenees dogs really do help my decision. I have looked at them before and just wanted an actual person who owns one to provide me with a sort of peek into what they would really be like, you did that so thanks!

jenisis77 · #12 07/20/12, 01:45 PM

Thanks for the awesome info Wolf Flower!

Oregon Julie · #13 07/20/12, 02:45 PM

Even 8 acres is not a lot of space for a dog to guard and you need to consider neighbors. Maybe you don't have close neighbors, but if you do not all of them appreciate the dog barking for long periods of time in the middle of the night. Plenty of hard feelings have come up between neighbors over barking dogs. When ever we have moved to a new place, always at least 20 acres with no real close neighbors. We have made an effort to meet our neighbors and explain what the dogs are and why the barking is happening. It won't always help, but it is worth the time it takes to do it.

jenisis77 · #14 07/20/12, 03:25 PM

Nope, no neighbors. This area is in the middle of no where (so much so that there are no zoning or building codes) there is also no power lines etc so it is off grid. Please do not consider neighbors when responding, I know some have suggested it but this area is primarily purchased so that people can hunt once maybe twice a year. Barking is something that can be a pain but dogs are trainable. Since it is highly wooded I need a good dog that will protect livestock that my family will be consuming. I am not raising animals as any sort of hobby and I understand that there may be some loss where we are located concerning possible critters going after my animals. But I want to minimize this loss with a LGD, please take note that this is an outside dog. I intend to take very well care of the dog and will respect it but it is not meant to be a pet for my kids, it will be a dog that guards our food. We will be having a traditional homestead.

Wolf Flower · #15 07/20/12, 08:31 PM

An LGD may not be a "pet" in the traditional sense, but you want to make sure your LGD is socialized to people. There will be times where you will have to take your dog off the property (to the vet, etc) and he should know how to walk on a leash, ride in a car, and be handled by people. Otherwise, you will have a terrified, confused, 100+ pound half-feral beast dragging you around.

They will still bond with and guard your stock just as well (possbily even better) if they are socialized to people. You may have heard the opposite, but that is old-school thinking, and it's not in the dog's best interest or yours.

If you get a puppy, raise him in with the stock for the first few weeks so he bonds to them. Then, leash train him, again out with the stock, and do some obedience training (sit, come, lie down, etc). Brush him, stick your fingers in his ears, play with his feet, so he gets used to being handled. Take him out in the car when you go to town so he's used to riding in the car, and let people see him and pet him. At the end of the day, he always goes back with the stock. Then you have a dog who will guard your stock, and yet won't be a liability if he ever has to leave the property, and who will let you handle him if need be.

Oregon Julie · #16 07/21/12, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenisis77

Barking is something that can be a pain but dogs are trainable.

Good luck trying to train a LGD not to bark. That is the way most of them let the bad guys, both two legged and four legged, that they are on duty and to stay away.

jenisis77 · #17 07/21/12, 12:39 PM

Wolf Flower: you are very wise and I wish that you lived in Missouri!
Oregon Julie: That is a very cute dog on your profile- is it a Jack Russell? (Kind of off the topic but I couldn't resist, your dog has the same coloring as my Papillon)

Oregon Julie · #18 07/21/12, 04:47 PM

Yes, that is a Parson Russell Terrier pup (formerly known as a Jack Russell in AKC). She was a cutie as a pup and is living in a home with her very own 12 year old boy as a buddy.

MonsterMalak · #19 07/23/12, 08:58 AM

Although I raise the Turkish Breeds Boz and Kangals, I would reccomend the Pyrenees for you. They are less expensive, lower energy, and have less chase behavior.

The Turkish Breeds have many advantages, heat tollerance, less barking, etc..
But the Pyrenees are better fitted to small places, and with people that may not have the experience with huge dogs.

I may have been unlucky, but some of the Anatolians I had in the past were a pain to get them through their "chase" stage. Kangals had less of this, and Boz even less.

But as always, you have to monitor and correct problems quick.

Good Luck.

Lannie · #20 07/25/12, 12:49 PM

We live on 15 acres with a lot of shelter belt trees, which are mostly carragana, lilac, and wild plum. These are thick, and grow down to the ground, like thickets or really WIDE hedges. You can't see from one side of the property to the other because of the cover.

We had one Pyr and it wasn't enough. We had fox problems, and they'd get him riled up and barking, then just go around him. Then we got a second Pyr (a female) and all fox trespassing activity came to a screeching halt. In fact, that female brought me a fresh fox tail one frosty winter morning, bless her heart. We only really have poultry that needs guarding, but since we've had two dogs working together, we haven't lost a single bird to predators of any kind, including hawks and eagles. Not one.

My point being that if your property is heavily wooded, I would seriously consider getting at least two dogs (and I strongly recommend a male and a female combo) so that your property is adequately covered. If we had 15 acres on the flat with just a few "normal" trees, one dog would be plenty, but because of the cover situation, we really need two, and you might also.

As far as the roaming/escaping thing goes, we were having a problem with ours for a while, but fortunately we also live out in the middle of nowhere, so there was no trouble for them to get into, other than possibly getting hit out on the road, which, given the amount of traffic, wasn't very likely. It was still unacceptable, though, because you have a guardian dog to guard your stock and property, and they can't very well do that if they're not at home. So we spent a few hundred bucks on an electronic transmitter fence and one of the dogs wears the receiving collar. When she gets within 5 feet of the perimeter fence (we just ran the transmitter wire along the top of the existing perimeter fence), she gets a zap. Now both dogs stay home, even though there seems to be a break in the wire somewhere and the fence has been off for a while now. SHE doesn't know it, though.

Getting two dogs was the best money we ever spent, and getting that transmitter fence was the second best.

~Lannie

Ness · #21 07/25/12, 03:41 PM

We have a karakachan, I don't even know where you'd find one (ours came to us by way of needing a new home - no fault of his own); but he is an excellent guard dog and lets my kids climb all over him. That's specifically what they are bred to be, great with people but a charging bear towards predators.

We don't allow him to roam, but when he does get out, he doesn't go very far. (I wouldn't keep any LGD loose though, if they run off too far after a predator that gives other predators the chance to attack the herd).

If you want a dog that won't bark, don't get an LGD. Thor doesn't wake me up at night unless there is something seriously bothering him, but I've had dogs all my life so I'm fairly used to hearing them. He does bark all night long when the coyotes come around, we do have neighbours, yes I've heard a few complaints, I don't give crap, we haven't lost of the animals Thor is around.

I'd love to get a second, but we're at 4 dogs now

jenisis77 · #22 07/27/12, 11:27 AM

Thanks Lannie, I have looked into the transmitters from Pet safe and that looks like the best way to go. I am literally going to be in the middle of nowhere so neighbors will only consist of wooded critters and a bunch of cattle and donkeys nearby but that's about it. It is a place that is well hidden, even from the gravel road no one would really be able to see it. Thanks to everyone for great advice!!

Mouflon · #23 07/30/12, 04:58 PM

Each puppy in each litter of each breed is going to have its own personality. By picking one breed over the other you are hedging your bet toward certain traits but there are no guarantees.

"ON AVERAGE" I would list the tendencies as follows...
Anatolians:
Shorter coat, less maintenance.
MUCH more athletic (and active and capable of escaping or harassing stock).
Longer lived. Fully capable past 10 years.
More likely to chase/harass stock through adolescence.(could be 3 yrs or more)*
Less likely to bark excessively.
Sometimes too smart for their own good.

Pyrs:
They are slugs (comparatively speaking), especially after 4 or 5 years.
Much better with stock from an early age.*
"Likely" to bark too much.
Not as long-lived, 7 to 8 years is old for a Pyr and at that age performance will be diminished.
Less likely to get out.
Coat is a pain, although mine don't seem to suffer, they do get all sorts of crap stuck in it and it sometimes mats up.

Just a guideline, there are many exceptions to the above.

* - Biggest factor for me and why I now go with Pyrs or a Pyr/Anatolian cross.

I also believe getting a puppy at a very early age is best, especially if the puppy was born around a different species than the one you own. At four weeks they have likely been weaned and are ready for a new home IMO. At this age they are just furry slugs without a clue. If put in a pen next to your stock, by the time they are ready for short supervised stints with your stock, your stock (its smells, noises and general nature) is all that they will know and it will be old hat for them. It is also a plus for the stock as well. They will be more than familiar with the new addition by the time it is ready for duty.

Just my two cents based on my experience.