Tags/Reg.?

[Michael Leferink]

I was just reading the thread about Scabies Tags and Registration and I'm not really clear on the lawful requirements. We are thinking of getting two or three dairy goats sometime in the future and are attempting to do our research now. We plan on keeping goats only for home use. Of course they must be bred to bring on lactation. We will need to sell what kids we do not eat ourselves. I understand that there are registries for just about any animal. And I understand that certain test such as TB, John's, CAE,CL, etc., need to be done. My question is, will our goats need to be registered with the government? Do we need to participate in the Scabies program, since we plan on selling our excess kids? Just what are the mandatory requirements, under Federal law. I understand that each State may have it's own set of requirements.

Thanks,

MikeL

[Eveningstar]

The disease you are referring to is scrapie. Scrapie attacks the central nervous system of sheep and more rarely goats. It may remain dormant in the animals system for up to and possibly longer than five years. There is no "test" for scrapie as it is diagnosed by examination of brain tissue. There is only an identification program to help irradicate it. If you will be selling or moving goats/sheep off of your property, federal law says you have to tag your animal before doing so. It doesn't matter what state you live in or the age of the animal or if you are selling a wether (castrated buck), he will need one too. There are three types of federally approved identification methods: tags that are obtained through your state department of agriculture, tatoos (and papers) from a federally approved goat registry - ADGA is one, or a microchip with correct papers. The extra kids that you would be selling, would need to be tagged before leaving your property. The only way you would not need to tag your animals is if you raise them solely for your own use and butcher the extra goats for your own consumption. That would mean you would be butchering them and processing them yourself. If you don't plan on keeping a buck for breeding, you would need to take them to a person who has a buck and would breed them for you (A good way to go if you only want a couple does). Your does would need to be tagged before going to get bred. Tagging would be the easiest way and the least expensive way for you. The big deal comes in where you are a breeder of show stock and/or dairy stock. If a person breeds goats to sell for show, milk production, correct markings and betterment of the breed, then things get a little more sensitive. That person is most likely to register their herd with a dairy goat association. The association gives you a herd identification in the form of three to four initials which are tatooed in the right ear of the goat. The birth year letter and number go in the left ear. These numbers can then be used for scrapie id if the goat has papers to prove it is registered. What these people don't like about tags is they can tear the ear as to make the tatoo unreadable. The goat then can't be proven registered because the numbers can't be verified, she can't be shown as a registered goat. If you start out with registered stock, join the ADGA, have the goats transferred to your name, then you won't need tags at all just as long as you stay a member in good standing and register all your kids that you plan on keeping. It is just if they leave your farm, they must have some sort of traceable identification. If you are not going to show or sell purebred stock, get the tags from the state -they come with an applicator, put them in anything that is going to leave your farm (right before it leaves) and the problem is solved.
All this is really a mute point with goats. They can get scrapie but not very likely. Sheep on the other hand do get it. It is mad cow disease of the sheep world. What this program is meant to do is protect the larger dairies and purebred breeders. Lets say Farm A sold 50 goats to Farm B.
No tags were in the ears and no other form of id came with them. A goat happened to be found with the disease. Although it originated from FarmA, Farm B assumes all responsibility because it can't be proven where the goat originated from. If they find scrapies in your herd, the herd is quarantined, nothing goes out and nothing comes in. I haven't heard what else they do. In cows and sheep, they destroy the animals. I don't know if you have to wait a certain number of years after that to have animals again but I imagine that to be the case. So think of what would happen if Farm B has a herd dispersal sale. Well, you see how things could really get spread around. The most likely of goats to contract scrapies are the ones in petting zoos or the ones who are kept in close contact with exotic animals. Game reserves are really the ones who should be targeted to be tested. It is only my opinion but they are the ones who bring in exotics from who knows where, a sick one gets away and mingles with a herd of farm animals and there you go. So if tags in the ears bother you, get registered with American Dairy Goat Association and get your goats registered. If the tags are no big deal, get the applicator and tags, keep them in a safe place and tag the animal when you sell it. Good luck goat hunting. Do you have a breed in mind yet?

[Michael Leferink]

Eveningstar,

Thanks so much for clearing that up for me. With so many options, it doesn't look too bad. I'm not one to agree with a lot of government fiddle faddle, but I think this is one program that I can go along with. If I remember correctly, it was scapie that almost wiped out the Desert Bighorn Sheep. I was taught they caught it from domestic stock. It looks like there are enough options that I can pick one that will work for us. Might go with ADGA and the microchip. The chip might come in handy if our goats are ever stolen.

We have not made up our minds about the breed yet. Maybe more than one? I'd like to be able to breed the year 'round and I would prefer high butterfat. I like the looks of the Oberhasli but isn't it a seasonal breeder and doesn't it have average butterfat? So we're leaning toward Nubian, Nigerian, or Kinder. DW and I really like the looks of the ND and Kinder. But the Nubian is pretty too and would give us more milk per goat and bigger kids for meat. We are in Louisiana and mostly see Nubian, ND, Pigmy and Boer.

Thanks again,

MikeL

[Eveningstar]

Michael,

Yeah, the microchip does sound neat. It requires a veterinarian to put them in. Probably the most inconspicuous of the three. Then you wouldn't necessarily need to be registered with ADGA as it gets expensive to register numbers of goats. Yes, scrapie is a sheep disease. Rarely do you see it in goats unless maybe you keep exotics also. Tuberculosis is the one we have to worry about in N. MI as the deer carry it. TB varies from state to state.

I don't see many Oberhasli up here although I am buying a herd from another gal who posts on here. She has one in her herd - very pretty! I have Alpines and can get a fair amount of cream from their milk. Nubian is by far the best for that though. Nubian is a more vocal goat than I like. LaManchas have the sweeter tasting milk, and Saanens are the dairy cow of the goat world giving greater quantities than the others (but not always). Toggenburgs have a stronger tasting milk and Alpines are a good all around goat. Nigerian, Kinder, and Pigmy won't give alot of milk and I've never tasted their milk. I'm not aware of a goat that is NOT a seasonal breeder. Unless it is the meat goats which would be the Boer. They breed starting in the fall or late summer when the weather cools off. You can stagger the breedings and always have a doe in milk. About three does would do nicely for the first time. I like mine to breed in September - October for Feb. and March kids - no bugs. All I have to worry about is the cold. If I would stagger breedings all the way into December, I would have does kidding through May. When the first were ready to be dried off again for kidding, I'd still have does in milk. It just takes some good record keeping and controlled breeding.

Keep me posted on how things are coming along. I'd like to know what you come up with. Vicki is the "Nubian" gal on here. Maybe she will post back too! Elizabeth

[okgoatgal2]

about 3 yrs ago, there had been 7 confirmed goat scrapie cases in the US since the 1940's. only if goats are kept with breeding sheep during lambing and the goats got into the birthing mess, as far as i've been able to find out, have goats gotten scrapies.

that said, this program has it's failings, as all gov't programs do.
i breed a doeling, register and tattoo her. then sell her to joe doe 50 miles away, who gets a divorce, runs her thru the auction, and neglects to send her papers. jim joe buys my doe, takes her 25 miles home, and turns her loose on his 50 acres as brush control. she get spooked by something, and hates being alone, so she goes over the hills until she finds a donkey, 20 miles further away. the donkey is guarding some sheep, but this man already has some goats for milk when the sheep do their stupid thing and reject their babies. so he takes the goat to his nearest auction and she goes across state lines, into a flock of sheep. this flock gets scrapies, the doe eats the afterbirth, shows signs of scrapies and is put down. they are going to come back to ME and close ME down b/c i'm where the paper trail began. joe doe, tossed the papers and denies ever buying her, says i faked the bill of sale and receipt, or never gave him papers, or whatever. i'm closed down, and 10 yrs of hard work and breeding is down the tubes and i have to start from scratch. not quite fair is it? that's the way i understand this program, from several months of research, about 3 yrs ago.

[Eveningstar]

Hello goatgal. No it wouldn't come back to you. For one, you would have registered the goat. Papers would have gone with her. All auction barns require you to have a paper identification also in order to sell her or they will refuse to sell her through their auction ring. I imagine the feds will also make us call for moving permits very soon. I always make a stipulation in my goat sales that when the new owner doesn't want her or has no use for her anymore to bring them back to me, and before I sell anything I go through a series of questions about how the goat will be housed, what she will be used for and so on. I may even deliver them to the place myself and if it is not adequate, give the money back without even unloading the goat.
I had a couple of my goats housed with my sheep and they had NO interest whatsoever in the afterbirth of the sheep.
I'm not saying a scenario like this couldn't exist but you would have three auction barns there having records that the goat did come through and have all three previous owners names. Hope this helps.
Elizabeth

[Michael Leferink]

It's situations like this that I worry about, too. A lot of people don't realize how hard it is to write a perfect law or regulation. There are almost always unintentionally (sometimes hidden and intentional) bad consequences to a law/regulation. I wish more people would understand that, before they insist on or support a new law/regulation. More laws almost always mean more crime and problems for law abiding citizens and less liberty, as well. I want to help protect against the spread of harmful viruses, bacteria, and parisites. However, the legislation needs to be constructed in such a way as to not cause harm to people rights and businesses. Anyway, that's why I try to research the legalizisms, before I get involeved with anything new. I always miss something, but I do my best. I believe the best thing to do when selling any animal is to always give a written, dated and signed (by all parties) receipt and to keep a permenant record of the sale. That should be of some help if a problem develops at a later date.

Thanks,

MikeL

[Eveningstar]

Good recordkeeping can always save you. But, yes I don't like the government knowing my every move either. It seems sometimes they want to put the little farmers out of commission. But we do the best we can I guess.
Elizabeth

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

All my goats are sold with registration papers, either hard copies back from ADGA who have a bill of sale attached to the bottoms, or puppy papers that have a transfer section on them. I simply fill them out, it contains the persons name, address and their signature. Make them fill this out and sign them in front of you, I then make a copy of this and send them and the goat on their way. With good record keeping like this where you do the same thing each time, you won't be the one questioned, the new owner will be the one trying to prove my paperwork is wrong not the other way around. And really scrapie or not, it's really information we should have on all sales anyway. So for me the scrapie regs just gave me further reason to keep up with paperwork immediatly that I sometimes would put off. I keep these sold goats in a 3 ring binder in order of their left ear tattoo.

If I had a reason to sell a goat without paperwork, I would ruin her right ear tattoo by tattoing over it twice and inking it, so she could not be traced back to me...or... place her scrapie tag in her ear, or eat her/him. It's also one of the reasons I do not sell unregistered stock (because I lack paperwork than on the sale), even to those folks who call asking if I have anything for sale, and they aren't interested in show stock. Which translates into they want a $50 goat But registration is alot more than about show stock.

No matter which way you end up going, go at your paperwork in a business manor.

There is a huge market starting with the mini dairy goats, especially the mini LaManchas. It would be fun getting these little guys started out. Mini's are Nigerian Dwarfs buck bred to full size dairy goats, Kinders are Pygmy's bred to Nubians.

There are major herds of Nubians in both ends of Lousianna, in Texas and Oklahoma, but there are also really good sales of them, also exports. Selling milk is big business now compared to how it was for years, and alot of this is thanks to realmilk.com check that site out even if you only are interested in a few dairy goats. Check out ADGA.org and check for dairy goat clubs in your area. Do your homework before you purchase, and try by visiting lots of places to have a clear goal for your homestead before you purchase stock. It's hard to get rid of your first goats when you realize you have made a mistake in the purchase. Esepcially with disease. Vicki

[Michael Leferink]

Vicki,

We are rabbit growers and your post pretty much agree's with what I tell people who want to start up a rabbit herd. While I've never had goats before, I am the son of farmers and have been around animals most of my life. I've seen first hand what problems poor start up stock, government reg's. and poor record keeping can cause. That's exactly why I do so much research before I decide on a new project. We don't know if we will get into goats or not. Still weighing the pro's & con's. But if we do, then we will be sure to have all the food, water and shelter issues in place before we purchase our first goats. Also, while I would not rule out cross bred goats, we plan on obtaining the best quality animals we can afford and find within a reasonable distance. Just as with our rabbits, we will be keeping records on our goats. Including who we buy from and who we sell to.

Elizabeth, okgoatgal2, Vicki,

Thank you all for your advise and information. You've given me just what I need and I will be bugging you all for more advise in the future. We will be moving back to the country, as soon as finances will allow. While we are waiting, I'm going to be gathering as much information as I can. It sure is helpful to have so many nice and knowledgeable people available.

Thank you all again,

MikeL