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  #1  
Old 08/01/05, 07:27 PM
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 43
fecal testing

My vet, who does my fecal testing, told me that he doesn't trust the "floatation" method because it gives false negatives. He puts a mashed up bit of pellet right onto a slide with some solution. Does anyone know if the blood sucking worms can be detected this way? I keep getting clean fecal reports from him but I find it hard to believe that nobody has worms two months after being wormed with Cydectin. Nothing against Cydectin, it's just the grass is so short and I figure they're ingesting lots of worms when they graze.

Debi
Kaufman TX

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  #2  
Old 08/01/05, 11:43 PM
Lonesome Doe Nubians
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North of Houston TX
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It's been so hot here and Cydectin works so well on adult worms that I have not wormed my adult herd since they kidded in March.

I couldn't agree less with your vet. First it's not as if you will ever see and adult worm crawling around in a goat pellet. That's the whole point of fecal sampling in goats, you crush up about 7 berries, you add the floatation material (salt water) the debri floats to the top the sludge/poop sinks to the bottom, right under the top you pull of this liquid and you count eggs.

There is not such thing as a false negative, you either have sufficient eggs that mean you have moms in the goat laying eggs, or your don't have enough eggs. You also then through the eggs can tell what kind of worms eggs they are, to identify the adults.

Fecal sampling is a tool. It goes along with other tools, pasture rotation, keeping your pens clean, not cutting your grass too short, in fact not pasture raising goats period, they are browsers. Using a worm pen to keep them from pooping out incredible numbers of live eggs and larve with some adult worms back into their pen, after worming. Quaranteen of new stock coming in. And looking for anemia....... the FAMCHA guide is a very good key, but once again in the south be very careful..... in our area do not worm on salvage only (anemia, diarrhea, hair coat change), because once you see anemia the damage to the doe is huge.

It's rarely more expensive to just send off your own fecal material to Texas A&M or Pan Amercian Vet Lab (goggle PAVL) esepcially with this information your vet has given you, or worse they have techs doing it in the office.

Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Houston TX
Lonesome Doe Nubians est: 1986
www.lonesomedoenubians.com
NubianSoaps.com

Round 2 of kidding starts May 15th, a few doelings and bucklings will be for sale.

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  #3  
Old 08/04/05, 01:37 AM
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 43

Hey Vicki!

After reading your post, I called another vet and they do the flotation kind.

It's been unbearably hot up here too and no rain. From what I've read in the past, this heat will kill off a lot of the worm larvae but the pasture is out of grass and no new browse to speak of so any grazing is low where the worms hang out.

I check eyelids everyday on whoever is close by. The one doe I had the fecal done on has nice dark pink lower eyelids but her gums and tongue are gray-pink colored. I'm taking her poop to the other vet in the morning just to be sure. I missed copper bolusing this particular doe so I've been watching her more closely. I just don't like the color of her mouth.

Will let you know. Thanks for your help.

Debi
Kaufman TX

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  #4  
Old 08/08/05, 01:35 AM
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 43

I took the new poop samples to a different vet and they came back negative also. I guess that means the worming program is working here.

I told the woman out front at the vet's that I needed to know the types of eggs and a count and she said they didn't do that, why did I need to know that anyway because I'm suppose to worm every month. I tried telling her that resistance to the wormers was becoming more common and she got really ****y. She even rolled her eyes when I told her I was worming by fecals and eyelid color.

Time to get the equipment and learn to do it myself.

Debi
Kaufman TX

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  #5  
Old 08/08/05, 04:52 PM
Lonesome Doe Nubians
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North of Houston TX
Posts: 4,817

NOTHING is worse than dealing with the vets girls in the front office, who play at being a vet! I didn't pay for your advice so make the appointment, get my bill correct and HUSH!

Yep doing it yourself is the way to go, yes the McMaster's slide is expensive, but if you can pick up a microscope at a pawn shop and get a parisitology book off Amazon (and actually Karin's photos up on saanendoah.com and emailing her privately she has an excellent CD for sale, are just as good) it will be the only expense. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Houston TX
Lonesome Doe Nubians est: 1986
www.lonesomedoenubians.com
NubianSoaps.com

Round 2 of kidding starts May 15th, a few doelings and bucklings will be for sale.

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  #6  
Old 08/08/05, 10:15 PM
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 43

I'm so glad someone else has had the "girl at the front desk" treatment. Geez, I walked around for 2 days trying to figure out what I had done to deserve her "you're an idiot" routine. I even asked my husband if there was something wrong with me to make a total stranger think it's okay to talk to me like I'd pee'ed on her floor or some other bizarre behaviour.

What kind (sorry, what size of power) of microscope do I need to get started?

Debi
Kaufman TX

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  #7  
Old 08/08/05, 11:01 PM
Lonesome Doe Nubians
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North of Houston TX
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You don't need a high powered microscope. Our 4H group learned with their microscopes from Wallmart and Toys R Us. What you do need if you are older like me is it's own light source, mine is a small bulb, not a reflector type. I simply couldn't see anything even with glasses. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Houston TX
Lonesome Doe Nubians est: 1986
www.lonesomedoenubians.com
NubianSoaps.com

Round 2 of kidding starts May 15th, a few doelings and bucklings will be for sale.

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  #8  
Old 08/08/05, 11:48 PM
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 298

Do you have to use McMaster's I've heard that regular blank slides work very well. I bought a starter kit and I'm pretty sure it doesn't have mcmaster slides and I haven't read much about people using them. Do you think they work better than regular ones? Thank you.

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  #9  
Old 08/09/05, 02:44 PM
Lonesome Doe Nubians
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North of Houston TX
Posts: 4,817

A regular slide will only tell you yes or no you have worm eggs. You could of course also identify the type. A chambered slide, like McMasters, and I am sure there are other brand names, allow you to count eggs in the chamber, multiply it out and be able to decide if the numbers are large enough if you need to worm or not. 300 spring and summer and 3000 fall and winter here. Other than the 10 days after the worm, I have never seen a clean fecal on a goat here. So if I didn't use a chambered slide where I could count I would be worming with every fecal I ran. Only goats who are on cocci meds have clean cocci fecals.

On a regular slide you would be testing 7 goat berries and enough fecal solution (I use stock salt) to dissolve, let set for 15 minutes, take your eyedropper (I use a pippette I use for Esecential Oils in my soaping) and fill the slide, with the material from the middle of your testtube...you would be counting the whole slide full of all the eggs, I would be counting one chamber of the whole slide and multiplying. I am sure you could figure out a way of doing this on a regular slide if you did enough fecal samples, say at a club meeting? Our club has a parsitologist out for fecal refreshers every couple of years, might want to look on ADGA.org and see if there is a club in your area, or if the local teaching univeristy with goats puts on parasite classes to learn there. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Houston TX
Lonesome Doe Nubians est: 1986
www.lonesomedoenubians.com
NubianSoaps.com

Round 2 of kidding starts May 15th, a few doelings and bucklings will be for sale.

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  #10  
Old 08/09/05, 06:42 PM
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 298

Wow, thanks, do you know where I could get these slides the cheapest. I go to Oregon State University and one of my professors told me she would help me learn, all I need is to get some of those slides. If you have a website of a place that sells them the cheapest, or the ones you recommend, that would be great, also, are they reusable, I figured they were. Also any secrets and tips would be very benificial. Thanks Vicki.

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  #11  
Old 08/09/05, 11:04 PM
Lonesome Doe Nubians
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North of Houston TX
Posts: 4,817

It's like anything else. My 4H kids were much better at this than me, of course they have much better eyesite, but also love all the ick of the poop and the working with the microscope. Just like the blood pulling site the 12 year old girl did, you have 4H kids all over the country running their own fecal samples. It's us adults that make a huge deal out of any procedure we think a vet should be doing.

Goggle McMasters, but ask your vet to look in their catalogs if they have chambered fecal slides. You can make your own fecal solution with salt and hot water or sugar and hot water or use fecalsol, and honestly those of us who use salt or sugar have better results with the homemade solutions, I think it is thicker. I don't use sugar simply because of the sticky factor. I also purchase a gallon of distilled water to make sure there isn't anything in it since we have a well. Yes the slides are all reusable, I know I paid what my vet paid $35. I have had it for years. My microscope came from a pawn shop in Houston, across from the medical center, filled with med students who pawn their equipment It has also been to college with my daughters twice

Once you learn how to do it, you will be back on the list telling us how easy it is. It certainly isn't rocket science stuff Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Houston TX
Lonesome Doe Nubians est: 1986
www.lonesomedoenubians.com
NubianSoaps.com

Round 2 of kidding starts May 15th, a few doelings and bucklings will be for sale.

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  #12  
Old 08/10/05, 01:18 AM
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 43

What's the recipe for the salt solution?

Debi
Kaufman TX

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  #13  
Old 08/10/05, 01:30 AM
Laura Workman's Avatar
(formerly Laura Jensen)
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Lynnwood, Washington
Posts: 2,287

I haven't done goat fecals, and I don't know what a McMasters slide is, but I gather it's a chambered slide of some kind.

I have done hundreds, or possibly thousands, of human fecals, though, and we never used a chambered slide. We used a grease pencil to draw a square on the slide, put a drop of solution inside the square, and applied the coverslip. The grease pencil gave enough thickness that the specimen wasn't smashed, and also contained the solution. We also did saline and iodine mounts directly from feces without doing the floatation on the samples. Saline so we could observe live critters. Giardia and trichomonas (vag specimens) were really cool! And iodine for more defined details.

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  #14  
Old 08/11/05, 01:25 AM
Lonesome Doe Nubians
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: North of Houston TX
Posts: 4,817

Laura, that is a very good idea and would duplicate the idea of the chambered slide!

Debi, a 5 gallon bucket, you get as hot of water out of the barn hotwater heater as will come out, you then start to stir stock salt into it, until no more will stir in and you have a pile in the bottom of your 5 gallon bucket. This is exactly how I learned the first time at Texas A&M

I do it similar, only I do it with water that is very hot on the stove, stock salt and a spoon in a mason jar. I cap the jar and keep it in the fridge so I only have to make it every couple of months.

There is no way I could have put my arm into this bucket to stir the salt into the water, even when he poured and handed me my water, the container was almost too hot for me to hold. But then I am a whimp about hot water

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Vicki McGaugh
Houston TX
Lonesome Doe Nubians est: 1986
www.lonesomedoenubians.com
NubianSoaps.com

Round 2 of kidding starts May 15th, a few doelings and bucklings will be for sale.

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