Raw milk question for those who use it.

[homebirtha]

What age would you start giving a human kid raw goats milk? We just got two dairy goats that we're milking. They've been tested and are healthy, and were purchased from a dairy. I've been drinking the milk for a few days with no problems. I'm just debating about when to let her try some. She's begging for it when she sees me drinking it.

[TabletopHomestead]

This isn't advice, but we give both a 4-year old and a 8-month old raw goat milk from our own goats.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I don't have a popular opinion about this but I will give it to you

Yes my grandbabies are raised on raw goatsmilk, the difference? I have had goats for years, I would be able to pull a doe with listerosis or sypmtoms of, before the milk in the house or what is for sale is contaminated. A human adult without disease can shake off many of the milk contaminations that are in milk, an infant, a child under 1, and elderly adult or someone with an auto-immune disease can not. Would I purchase milk from someone else and feed it to my grandchildren, unpasturised NO. Would I buy a goat from someone and feed this milk to my grandchildren, unpasturised, NO. There is alot more than testing, most of the disease you see that causes problems in the milk are not testable for.

Coming from a Grade A dairy, means nothing. Only the facilites are liscensed, they can be milking the most diseased, skiiny emaciated goats around, living in squallor...and sadly some do, because they do not liscense or test the animals for disease. TB and Brucilosis are not diseases of goats.

My advice is to get a season or two of milking under your belt before you take the raw plunge. Vicki

[homebirtha]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Coming from a Grade A dairy, means nothing. Only the facilites are liscensed, they can be milking the most diseased, skiiny emaciated goats around, living in squallor...and sadly some do, because they do not liscense or test the animals for disease. TB and Brucilosis are not diseases of goats.
Vicki

Not these folks. They are highly respected dairy goat owners and have been for many years. They test their animals regularly. I thought there was a requirement for a dairy to do that, but I guess they just choose to do it for other reasons. They also do all the ADGA grading, evaluations, whatever all that stuff is. They have numerous GCs, etc.

Anyway, I appreciate your input. Can I ask? Pretend I had bought the goats from you, would you have the same recommendation of waiting? Not at all snarky in asking that. Just that I would say the people I bought these from are of the same caliber goat breeders that you describe yourself to be, so I'm curious is your advice would hold if you knew the goats you sold to be healthy. Does that make sense?

[okgoatgal2]

my last baby got goat milk in supplement form from the time he was about 4mo old, raw. i nursed him until he was 8 months old, then he went on all raw goat milk. he's one of the healthiest 5yo's i know.

[Starsmom]

If there is any concern at all about raw milk, why not pasteurize it for the children? I drink it myself raw, but I do pasteurize for my son. I also know an elderly lady that has lots of problems taking her medications and keeping food down. When she found out I had a milking doe, she asked for some milk. After drinking the milk, she has been able to stop taking some of her medications and has had no problems keeping her food down. (I pasteurize it for her as well) Her doctor told her she was doing well and allowed her to stop taking some medications. He told her there were some healing properties in goats milk that can in some instances be very helpful.

[homebirtha]

Yes, that's what I would do if I decide I don't want her to have raw. We'll still use it, just pasteurize it first.

But, some of those healing properties, some of the good live bacteria, is killed when it's pasteurized. I still think pasteurized milk from your own goat is better than store-bought factory-processed milk. But I do think the pasteurizing does negate some of the benefits. But I am debating pasteurzing for the kids, and I'm mulling over Vicki's thoughts on pasteurizing it all for awhile until we've been doing this longer.

Originally Posted by Starsmom

If there is any concern at all about raw milk, why not pasteurize it for the children? I drink it myself raw, but I do pasteurize for my son. I also know an elderly lady that has lots of problems taking her medications and keeping food down. When she found out I had a milking doe, she asked for some milk. After drinking the milk, she has been able to stop taking some of her medications and has had no problems keeping her food down. (I pasteurize it for her as well) Her doctor told her she was doing well and allowed her to stop taking some medications. He told her there were some healing properties in goats milk that can in some instances be very helpful.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I am glad you found yourself a nice place to purchase your stock from. What I meant was, TB, Brucilosis, CAE, CL are normal tests ran on goats, the first two are never positive in goats, other than those ran with cattle near the border of Mexico, and the other two tests don't affect the milk. Even the abortion test we use, although nice to have, and needed for export, doesn't really help you, one breeding season later and just like any STD, you need to retest. So Q fever, mycoplsma and chlymidia, all which can cause problem in raw milk, isn't a test that really tells you anything. Nothing is going to help you gain experience catching problems in your herd, staph mastitis, listerosis, that can contaminate the milk, other than having the goats, reading everything you can, and doing the day to day care of the goats themselves. Follow their feed recommendations, getting their grain mix, their hay until you can slowly move them to your diet you will choose to use. Once transitioned, once you have some experience, than drinking the milk is fine.

Sorry there is not a way not to make this post not sound uppity. But you simply have to get your managment down, milk stand, a milking routine that is followed to the letter each time you do it, so don't make it a hundred hoops to jump through. Milk cleanliness, straining, cooling, handling, storing. And the health of the children you are feeding the milk to. The list of milk borne pathogens in long, the list when you add manure from less than clean milking is huge. Make sure the milking chores for the family are yours. When feeding infants the elderly or someone who is ill, it's not a chore for a child who will do a less than perfect job when mom isn't watching.

Correct pasturization, is not going to harm much. 165 degrees, the does milk temp is 102, so it isn't that much more. Take it off the stove at exactly 165, immerse the pot into cold ice water, and there isn't that much difference in taste either. Vicki

[stormwalker]

Hi Vicki,
What are your thoughts on Johne's?

[homebirtha]

Thanks for the information Vicki. It didn't sound uppity at all. :-) It makes perfect sense what you're saying. That's why I was trying to get clarification from you. I was trying to ask, in a less than coherent way, if you take the neglected, unhealthy goat out of the equation, is the milk still potentially not safe.

I tell you, I'd love to get one of those Weck canners to pasteurize with. Geez, I wish they'd start shipping them. Anyone have any info on how to get my hands on one???

My 8YO threw up this morning. That kind of pushed me off the fence I think. It's probably not related to the milk, but it makes me wonder even more. And it made me realize that until I'm really comfortable with producing raw milk for us to drink, I'm going to get worked up everytime someone has a stomachache.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I haven't made my piece with Johnnes. Less than 25 minutes from me a friends family cow was put down with Johnnes. Scarry is that they drink the milk raw, they used to own LaMancha's, for their very large family. And the oldest boy, just went to college has Chrones. Yes this cow likely came to their place with it, but it's a disease of manure, and we all know how much manure you have with a cow, no matter how big your place is, she is milked and stalled in one place during milking.

A gal came on Nubian talk all in a hoopla about Johnnes, and we did find a milk test for it. I think it will be the best way to go with goats, since they rarely have diarrhea associated with Johnnes, and blood testing on goats is such an iffy proposition on disease that is not always in the blood.

Purchasing your family milkers from long lived bloodlines/herds is of course the only realistic way to do anything preventatively, because I don't know anyone who tests for Johnnes.

It gets a little daunting...CAE, CL, Staph Mastitis, with a 90 day quaranteen to get a doe into my barn, to then add Johnnes, which realistically will take a blood test, a manure test and perhaps a milk test is just going to add too much to the cost of the animal. I am lucky in that I rarely buy does, most of my does are homegrown now. I do feel sorry for folks starting out, because so many of the tests are do as I say and not as I do, as most older breeders know that it is alot more than the test result that you need. But new folks want tests, they don't care what the negative really means. Vicki

[steff bugielski]

I sell raw goats milk tofolks with newborns. Never any problem. the children are the healthiest and strongest around. My milk is tested for bacteria as well as pathogens monthly. The only deseases that can pass from goat to human are Tuberculosis and brucellosis. But young children can be seriously affected from Lysteria or e. Coli. You would not be able to detect these. That said I feel pasturizing will kill all the benifits of having your own goat milk. Better choice would be to have your state's dept of agriculture come and take samples. We pay $4.50 per goat. Seems very reasonable for the assurance that you get.
Steff

[stormwalker]

Thanks Vicki,
I worry about the Crohn's, Johnne's connection ,too. I know the jury's still out, but it's a heck of a chance to take with a child's life.
I didn't know there was a milk test for Johnnes. I'm going to have to look into it.
Your right about the blood and fecal tests. They're very iffy. You can get a negative test and still have it waiting to blossom as soon as you turn your back.
I worry about my new stock, even though they appear fine.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

As I do Steff, but it's a whole nother answer when most folks purchase goats. They have no health history at all. They aren't testing. They purchase them from auctions, from rescue, and from other well meaning folks, and then go home, milk and drink the milk raw. Would you sell or drink raw milk from a goat like this?

All my young moms get the talk from me. They know I use the milk raw on myself and my grandbabies. They also know that I think they should pasturize the milk. I also only sell milk frozen, so I know the milk is going to be defrosted in the fridge, and not sitting in an icechest on the way home, as they stop at the mall or grandmas. Milk is a bacteria vat. The perfect medium in which to grow disease.

Here is just a short list of what is found in milk, and this is by far not the complete list:


Brucellosis
Caseous Lymphademitis
Cryptoscoccosis
Leptospirosis
Listerosis
Louping Ill
Meliaoidosis
Q fever
Staphylococcal
Toxoplasmosis
Tuberculosis

Add if milk is contaminated with fecal matter
Camphylobacteriosis
Cryptospondiosis
Escherichia coli
Listeriosis
salmonelosis
Yersiniosis

Many of these are not testable in the blood, most need extensive milk tests to find. Nobody does this. So for me the correct answer to the question is to get some experience both with goats or cattle whatever you are going to milk, use clean milking habits, and the most improtant thing is consistancy. Consistant cleaning, consistant diet of the goat, consistant monitoring of the health of the milker.

I think the raw milk debate is way over the top. Yes raw milk is best for healthy adults, but nowhere not even in the bible were we expected to be drinking raw fluid milk as an adult. The land of goatmilk and honey, was symbolic first of all, secondly at no time would anyone but the milkmaid and perhaps the owner of the herd be able to drink any milk in a fluid form, there was no refridgeration. It was all fermented Cheese/likely their own form of keifer and their own form of yogurt and used in cooking, especially the boiling of meat.

Homoginization is what needs to be rallied against. But we haven't purchased grocery store milk (irionically the last time was to grow out doelings born out of season in years. But I am also not a huge fluid milk drinker, soft cheese is my drug of choice. Vicki

[Antoinette]

I hope this isn't a dumb question.....But if you use raw milk in the process of cooking or baking etc. are the dangers described above lessened in any way. Is this kinda like pasterization, since you are heating it?

[stormwalker]

I don't bother to pasteurize milk I'm using for baking and cooking. It would be redundant.
Cooking temperatures are usually way above 165 degrees. At least the way I cook! LOL

[mysticokra]

Thought you might appreciate what a few of the better researchers noted about feeding raw milk to kids. This is from http://www.realmilk.com/abstractsmilk.html


"Resistance to tuberculosis increased in children fed raw milk instead of pasteurized, to the point that in five years only one case of pulmonary TB had developed, whereas in the previous five years, when children had been given pasteurized milk, 14 cases of pulmonary TB had developed.

—The Lancet, page 1142, May 8, 1937
Human or cow milk added to an equal volume of agar did not support the growth or allowed only slight growth of B. diphtheriae Staph. aureus, B. coli, B. prodigiosus, B. pyocyaneus, B. anthracis, streptococci, and unidentified wild yeast. The factors in human milk inhibiting bacterial growth ('inhibins') were inactivated by heating at 56 degrees C. (pasteurization temperatures of 60-70 degrees C.) for thirty minutes or by standing twelve to twenty-four days at 5 degrees C., but not by repeated freezing and thawing. The 'inhibins' in cow's milk were not inactivated by heating at 80 degrees C. for seven minutes but were destroyed by heating at 85 degrees C. for seven minutes. Attempts have not been made to identify the natural antiseptics.

—Dold, H., Wizaman, E., and Kleiner, C., Z. Hyt. Inf., "Antiseptic in milk," The Drug and Cosmetic Industry, 43,1:109, July, 1938.

You may also enjoy what Sally Fallon has to say about Raw Milk and babies.
See http://www.realmilk.com/update_fall01_safebabies.html

Mark McAfee at Organic Pastures has actually introduced pathogens into his raw milk in a controlled study. The natural immunities in the milk killed them off. He even posts his SCC daily, just to prove that healthy milk is possible. See http://www.organicpastures.com/labtests/

[Mary Ann]

I'm a big fan of raw milk. The health benefits of raw vs pasteurized milk are many. Unless I am eating out, I no longer consume any pasteurized milk products. If you are interested in learning more, the RealMilk website has lots of terrific information.

If you have a healthy animal and take reasonable care in the processing of the milk, I am confident that the naturally occuring enzymes and benficial bacteria in the milk will prevent the growth of pathogenic bacteria.

That said, I think the issue of whether you truly have a healthy animal will best be answered not at a single point in time, but over a period of time.

It's true that there is some concern that there is a link between Johnne's and Crohn's. This isn't based on any causative data, but that the bacteria that cause Johnnes (and other diseases) have been found in the intestines of some individuals with Crohn's. And since Johnne's causes debilitation of the intestional tract of cows and Crohn's causes debilitation of the intestional tract in humans, the diseases are thought to be similar. While I wouldn't offer an opinion on whether there is a direct connection, it is true that persons with diseased digestive tracts have many abnormal pathogenic organisms present (fungi, bacteria, parasites, etc.), so it doesn't surprise me that this and other organisms are found.

For those concerned about Crohn's, you may be interested to know that there are concerns that pasteurization does not necessarily kill this bacteria. Research studies indicate that it appears to be more heat tolerant than some of the other types of organisms that pasteurization is designed to kill or reduce. In fact, pasteurization protocols are defined by the degree that organisms are reduced, not necessarily completely killed.

Mary Ann

[chas]

I am very pleased to see the last two posts are up on the real truth about raw milk! It seems too many people are scared off by the propaganda that is handed down from our enlightened Govt Agencies??????
There is talk about double pasturizing and more because the pathegens are getting harder to kill with pasturezation!!
If we would take time to read up on all the diseases animals or kids(humans) could get, we never would raise anything!
Our community in the 50s and 60s all had at least one milk cow in a shed.The city kids drank pasturized milk.At our last class reunion guess which ones looked the healthiest We got to comparing health and came up with farming ,raw milk, and dirt, has been good for us!
I give a one year old grandchild raw goat milk for a skin condition . The doc wanted to give her cortisone which may scar her!
One friend swears it keeps his gout away.
Another friend has seen the health we enjoy and started drinking our raw milk.The doctors can't find what is wrong with him, so he 's going to help himself. I could go on and on about the infants with digestive problems that we've helped.One even made the New Castle News.
I can't legaly sell it so I sell the half gal jug for a buck.I don't intend to get rich,just like to help people!
Drink up
Chas

[Milk n' Honey]

Proverbs 27:27 speaks specifically of goat's milk, which I found to be very interesting. Just remember, we live in a day of technology, medicine, testing and so on. Back before they were pasteurizing and homogenizing ( folks were having fresh raw milk delivered to their doors, or like me, went to the dairy to dip out some fresh milk and take home. It was the best. I hated when we were forced to swith to store-bought milk. I thought it was nasty. Well, the dairy had to shut down. I speculate now that maybe it was because they couldn't afford to bend to all the FDA rules set in motion for pasteurization. Anyway, people are not better off now because of more anti-bacterial methods for virtually everything. We just get sick easier. Children raised on raw milk are known to be able to withstand many more illnesses because they've been exposed to them. Milk contains small amounts of bacterias that in high concentrations will make us sick. However, much like a vaccine works, continual exposure to small amounts of a certain bacteria can build your immunity towards it. The people who are most affected by these bacterias are the ones who are never in contact with it. Another important fact is that people are not living longer healthier lives than what they used to. Indeed, people may live longer due to technology and medicine's ability to keep someone alive but if you look at how long people are living as healthy individuals, I believe we are seeing a huge decline where that is concerned. Truthfully, my opinion is that God made things for us to nourish our bodies with such as goat's milk. I can't imagine that he ever intended for us to have to boil it and test it and all sorts of "unnatural" things. With that said, I do believe cleanliness is important as is common sense. I will be having a baby in January and one of the main reasons I chose to buy a goat was to have fresh raw milk as a supplement. Look at the other option which is to supplement with a powdered cow's milk product that is known for causing colic in babies along with food and other types of allergies, irritable bowel syndrome (which Drs. can't seem to explain) and who know how many other things. Pasteurized milk has been known to be more dangerous than raw because there are no longer any good bacterias to keep the bad ones at an even keel. However, if I were not the one handling the milk, I'd feel different about drinking raw milk. That is why I insisted on buying a goat. I think the goverment would have us running scared of anything that might dip into some sort of profit margin. Raw milk drinkers are a threat to the dairy industry. Us non-conformers!! Oh well, I've given my opinion, for what it is worth. I guess we all have to do what we feel is best for our famillies. That is the main thing. Ya'll take care!!