breeding for doelings vs bucklings: a theory

[manygoatsnmore]

In a past issue of Dairy Goat Journal, I was reading about a couple that raised pack wethers. There was a theory presented there. Supposably, if you breed the doe to the buck early in her heat cycle, a higher percentage of buck kids will be produced. Breeding late in the heat cycle will produce a higher percentage of doe kids, and breeding mid-cycle will result in approx 50/50 each.

This year, of the 3 does that have kidded at our place, one was an oops breeding resulting in 1 buck, one doe. I do not know what phase of the heat cycle this doe was in. The other does were very close to going out of heat, one barely in standing heat, the other we played rodeo with to get her to stand long enough to be bred (and neither the buck's owner or I really thought she was bred until she started bagging up 4-5 weeks ago). Both does did produce twin doelings.

Statistically, this is too small a sample group to prove or disprove that theory (although I'm very happy with our results). So, I'm asking the rest of you. This was a big year for bucks with nearly everyone I know. Did you breed early, late or mid-cycle, and what results did you get from each mating?

[mary,tx]

How long do your does seem to be in heat? I'm not sure how to even judge early-mid-late cycle. I have some does that seem to be in heat for only a few hours. One this last year was in raging heat late at night. I put in the buck and they bred. In the morning, I never would have known she was even in heat.
Another doe will wear the buck out with her long interest.

I read an idea, I think on here, this year, that perhaps the buck throws more does as he is more used, since the male sperm is faster but not as hardy as the female sperm. The idea was that with more use, the male sperm becomes weaker. With that in mind, I am considering breeding mine all the same month this year. Just considering, mind you, because I like getting the kids in two shifts to spread out milk production.

Not meaning to knock your idea. I am definitely interested in getting more does!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Might want to hit the big lists of "Talk" (Nubian Talk, Alpine Talk etc) over on yahoo, where folks are using alot of AI. When AIing you are breeding by mucous and at the end of heat, so their buck to doe ratio's would be probably what you would be looking at. With heats only lasting a couple of hours in our Texas heat and most heats only happening during the night, I mostly pen breed. (A buck goes into a pen with a doe who is scheduled to come into heat). What I have found over the years is that over the lifetime of the doe she has pretty close to 50/50 no matter what, different bucks, young bucks, old bucks, AI'ed or live bred. We use vinegar in all our waterers all late spring and summer so we know this does not influence anything...1999, 36 bucklings 2 doelings born, 2001 to 2004 pretty good doeling years than 2005, 41 kids born 12 doelings the rest bucklings.

We have been talking about this on our list, and for those who have records and have actually had does for several years, I have 7 that were born here and died here (one 8 but the others 10, 11 and two 12 year olds) only the 8 year old died before she went 50/50 actually nowhere near, she had all bucklings for 8 years and one doeling! Vicki

[trnubian]

What I have found, and what many breders around here have told me from their experiences is that there are more doe kids born to a doe who was bred early in her heat cycle and more bucks born to a doe who is bred late in her heat cycle.

The doe sperm is hardier than the buck sperm and therefore has more of a chance than the buck sperm to inseminate an egg later in the heat cycle if the doe had been bred early in the heat cycle.

[chas]

Originally Posted by trnubian

What I have found, and what many breders around here have told me from their experiences is that there are more doe kids born to a doe who was bred early in her heat cycle and more bucks born to a doe who is bred late in her heat cycle.

The doe sperm is hardier than the buck sperm and therefore has more of a chance than the buck sperm to inseminate an egg later in the heat cycle if the doe had been bred early in the heat cycle.

You are correct.After breeding appaloosas for close to 20 years my customers
wanted fillies so I bred as the mares started the heat cycle.I had 70/75% fillies.
Tell you the truth I don't have these goats figured out for heat cycles.Plus I don't care what I get.In 12 years it seems pasture breeding has been 50/50 .
Chas

[Mawna]

Originally Posted by chas

You are correct.After breeding appaloosas for close to 20 years my customers
wanted fillies so I bred as the mares started the heat cycle.I had 70/75% fillies.
Tell you the truth I don't have these goats figured out for heat cycles.Plus I don't care what I get.In 12 years it seems pasture breeding has been 50/50 .
Chas

[B] Hello I am new to the forum. Not to the site though. I have been a reader off and on for a few years now. Okay I am alittle embarressed to have to ask this, but I would rather ask than be ignorant. When bred how long before a doe gives birth? We have the "goat girls". Two twin sisters of Alpine LaMancha mix. Phoebe and Ellie. They are alittle over 2 now. And we have taken them to a nice farm here in the Ozarks to introduce them to a good looking Billy. They are terribly confused at this move as the Girls are simply spoilt babies. Nothing but pets. So being nothing but pets, I know nothing about their breeding process. Anything anyone can educated me on and what to expect if and when the time comes, I would certainly appreciate it!! Thanks Mawna

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Welcome to the forum! They are pregnant for 150 to 155 days, 5 months. In August mabe, but by September for sure you will notice the girls being a little more vocal, perhaps meaner to each other, mounting each other, flagging their tails and being pests, this is heat. Some does can have very swollen emabarssing vulva's with wetness, no blood, just mucous, others show no signs at all. If you write down when they act like this you can start getting an idea of their cycle. Most does cycle every 21 days, swiss breeds in the south from August/September to Jan/Feb. Nubians and LaMancha's start cycling here in July, and we have had one heat already this week. If you see thier heat in September, count ahead 15 days and go and put them in with the buck, leave them their for 21 days if the folks will let you. Any chance they will let you borrow him? The girls will cycle more eggs and concieve more kids in the stress free enviornment at home that they are used to.

Make sure and worm them, vaccinate them, trim their feet and get them in really good shape before you breed them. Vicki

[Mawna]

Hey Thanks so Much Vicki! I just learned more from your post than I ever dreamed. I have raised horses and tons of domestic animals. But the goat girl sisters were brought home as little biddy babies and they have been nothing but pets. I had no idea my hubby was taking them to the pasture where they are now. So they could come into heat in the coming month? But speaking of stress, I think they are very stressed over this arrangement. When hubby goes to check on them they will run like fire to get to him as fast as their legs will go. I don't think they are happy with this arrangement at all. It would be wonderful to have little ones, but I miss the girls being at home with their antics. And we do have an entire western side of this mountain I would love for them and their kids to eat all the brush off of. So if they do breed, I will be back here alot asking what might seem like really ignorant questions to you guys.
Have a Great Day! Mawna

[moonspinner]

I have not found the cycle theory to work in either my own experience or anyone's I know. If anything there seems to be more a pattern of a doe's throwing more of one sex than another over their production lifetime, no matter which buck bred to. Even if the theory holds, that female sperm live longer, I think there may be too many other factors - like PH of mucous, length of cycle, strength and viability of sperm, etc to focus on one factor. I believe at this point I'm right around 50% each sex.

[hoggfan]

The doe has nothing to do with the sex of the young its all on the buck. The doe has two chromosomes XX and the buck has two also XY when the egg is fertilized they both lend a chromosome to the new baby and if the buck gives a X then its a girl (XX)but if he lends a Y then it will be a boy(XY). The doe has nothing to do with it what so ever. That is basic high school Biology.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Yep that is basic biology. And then there is basic vet information they learn from books. And THEN there is what happens day after day, year after year with folks who breed these goats. And you can throw out the books and the basic biology because it doesn't hold water.

In fact the beef most breeders have with vets is that our goats don't read the same books they do!


I know after having had two daughters, my cousin two sons, we both used successfully the book "Picking the sex of your child" or something like that. Which had nothing to do with our husbands and all to do with changing the ph of our vaginas. Vicki