Bad Luck Continues

JAS · #1 02/11/05, 08:09 PM

I lost another kid today. :waa:

I was so excited that my doe was in labor on such a nice day--40-50 degrees after a spell of teens and 20s. After about four hours and only hooves sticking out I called the vet and he came over and pulled the kid. It had it's head turned and was very large. Born dead and the mother is hurting

She was very large but only had the single.

I have another doe ready to go. I hope she does better. She is very large, I am almost hoping she has triplettes tomorrow so I could graft one on to the other doe. She is a good mother and was really trying to get her little buckling up. I called some other goat keepers to see if they had a bottle baby for her but no luck.

mary,tx · #2 02/12/05, 08:50 AM

Sorry things went so badly. From what I have read, it is not possible for a goat to deliver a kid with head back like that. The positioning has to be fixed, the sooner the better. Next time things do not look right, you'll have to be bold enough to stick a hand in and do some repositioning right away. Letting it go on for hours in an impossible position is only waiting for a bad outcome.
mary

Milking Mom · #3 02/12/05, 08:59 AM

So sorry for your loss. Were you there to watch the vet and how he went in and turned the head and pulled the kid out? Remember what you saw if you did and make some notes and if this should happen again you need to do what the vet did. Just wash your hands up really well and squirt on some ky jelly and get in there and push that kid back in and get that head turned straight and pull down on those feet working with the mother's contractions and get that baby out of there. It isn't as hard as it sounds. Lots of first timers do it. Once you see the feet present it shouldn't be but just a few minutes and the rest of that baby should plop out. If not you need to assist. Usually from time contractions start to first kid is born is to be no more than an hour, usually less than that. Once feet is present or anything else sticking out if shouldn't be but just a few minutes. Is there another goat person around that could coach you on emergency assistance? If not, get on the computer asap and get some advice. Usually people here and on the other dairy goat board are quick to respond with great advice. Time is of the essence in a situation like that so the kid doesn't suffocate. Waiting on a vet to get there would almost surely mean a kid that doesn't survive. Us goat people just HAVE to be our own vet most of the time. Here is hoping the next doe doesn't have any problems. BUT...if she does....get on this site AND on http://dairygoatsplus.com/forum/index.php and get some help quickly. Post in both places and some seasoned and knowledgeable person is sure to get with you right away. Good luck.

As far as grafting another kid onto this mom, unless you have some of the afterbirth goop that you could smear on that new kid the mom probably won't accept an orphan or "adopted" baby. Also if several days pass between births she probably wouldn't accept it any way. You could try it, but it might not happen.

Eunice · #4 02/12/05, 10:11 AM

It is always a sad thing to lose a kid - or cow. I milked on Thurday morning (paid job) and found the cow that had over 100# of milk last test day, dead. My boss said that she had been not acting well the night before, but nothing that was diagnosable. Back to goat - Last year Blackberry (2nd kidding, Alpine) looked to be in early labor at 8 a.m. I waited until about 3 p.m. to go in and check with my hand, what was going on. There was a fair sized kid in the transverse position. I got the head and feet up and delivered a nice doe kid. The next feet in sight were upside down. I delivered that kid very carefully in that position. That was a small doe kid. Next was a breech buckling. Last was another little doe kid, identical to number 2. They all made it and did great. Blackberry is due again in 3 weeks, and it is looking like either triplets or quads again. I am ready to help her sooner this time.

debitaber · #5 02/12/05, 01:11 PM

I am sorry to hear or your loss. maybe the vet, can show you how to g oin, I had to last year, and delivered, two dirls and a boy. they all did fine and so did mom.
It is hard when you loose some, I am so sorry for you. I hope the next does has great babies for you.

JAS · #6 02/13/05, 11:59 AM

Well I lost the mother last night.

The vet is a great guy and friend. He is actually the guy that started me on goats, he has about 90. But the kid pulling experience just did not seem right. Yes, I will be more aggressive with sticking my hand in there next time. I knew what needed to be done, I just could not get in there and all the books say call the vet at this point. The thing that disturbed me the most was how hard he had to pull and he was not waiting for contractions either. I am not sure why the mother died, but I am thinking injury to the uterus? The mother was overweight which just added to the problems.

This is the second doe I have lost due to birthing problems this winter, my only Angoras. I lost another doe earlier from old age. I only have six of my original does left! :waa:

Milking Mom · #7 02/13/05, 12:34 PM

OH, JAS!!! I'm so sorry!

{{{HUGGSSS}}}

mary,tx · #8 02/13/05, 12:48 PM

I have listened to old ranchers talk about pulling calves hard like that, but I also do not think it is the right way to do it. If the kid is positioned correctly, the doe can push it out. If she can't, repositioning is needed, not hard force.
I'm of the opinion that pulling should be only gently with contractions. Now that you know the vet can't do better than you, you'll know to try yourself next time. In this case, probably the kid should have been pushed back enough, early on, to move the head down. Not an easy task, for sure.
So sorry you lost them both.
mary

susanne · #9 02/13/05, 07:58 PM

it is hard to loose a kid but to loose the only kid there is is even harder. and than loose the doe too that is very very sad.
hope you have better luck with your remaining herd
susanne

sancraft · #10 02/13/05, 08:08 PM

I am soooo sorry for your lose. To lose a kid is hard enough,but to lose the mother too. OMG, I'd be a wreck. :waa:

Laura Workman · #11 02/13/05, 09:14 PM

Yeah, if the vet had to pull hard, it's very likely he injured the doe. A kid in a deliverable position, even a large kid, just won't require that much pulling. Usually, I just hold it in place so it doesn't get sucked back in between contractions, and then pull gently while the contraction is going on. If the kid is in a bad position, it definitely needs to be repositioned before it comes out, or your going to wreck the kid, the doe, or both.

Sometimes it's pretty hard to get the kid to go back into the uterus. I've found that if you can put the doe on her front knees, with her back legs in a standing position, the tipping of her body makes it comparatively easy to get the kid back in there, and you have quite a bit of room to work for repositioning. I have collars on my does, and an eye-bolt in the kidding stall a few inches off the ground. It has a plastic chain with a double ended clip. I put the doe on her knees, and clip her collar so she has to stay down and can't run off while I'm working. I haven't had one try to lie down, but I'd sure lift her back up with my free hand if that happened!

Just try to be calm, take your time and get it right. As long as the kid is still connected to Mom, you have all the time in the world. Also, when you're unfolding legs, be sure to guard the little hooves with your hand to keep them from puncturing the uterine wall, which is quite thin near the cervix. When the front hooves are foremost, find the head and lay it on the hooves. You can also bring kids out nicely back feet first, face down, so don't worry about turning the kid around if he's closer to the rear-end-first position. Once the kid is in position, let the doe stand up and guide the kid into the cervix. Usually, they'll come right out.

JAS · #12 02/14/05, 08:30 AM

Thanks everyone, I am so glad to have some place to go with my problems.

I do have a bit of good news. My Spanish doe had two beautiful bucklings yesterday

. She did it all by herself and they were up and feeding when I found them. She is a very good mother, I think this is her third kidding. She was trying to get me away from the her kids when I was putting iodine on them.