need help with doe

[Al. Countryboy]

My herd queen is due to kid on Feb. 4. She kidded last Feb. with 3 bucks. She has been eating less and less grain the last few days and ate little this morning. She is very large and did not want to leave the barn yesterday. She is eating hay good and been grazing in the pasture and in our walk in the woods a couple days ago. She is was eating about a pint and a half of feed twice a day. This is a mixture of alfalfa, crimped oats and a 12% goat feed. She is in good condition. For the last four days she has been holding her tail down and had a little discharge a couple days ago. I don't think this was the normal clear mucus. She had a little plastered tail. She seems to be filling ok but didn't stay away from the barn very long yesterday. Her poop is good. Chewing cud.
I am wondering if their could be a dead kid? This is not normal for her. I have vit. B, probis and penicillian. I know something is off about her and not sure what to do at this point. I feel that she will have at least three kids again. She is not bad at this point, but know something is not right. Her ligements are fine.I am going to see if she feels like a short walk outside the pasture to eat some of her favorite foods. Need some suggestions on what I should do. Thanks.

[Milking Mom]

Have you taken her temp?

[Al. Countryboy]

I believe her temp. is ok but will check. I checked her and believe that she is grinding her teeth some. I was going to give her some probis, but it does not give the amount to give for a grown goat. This is a 60 g tube.It says to give 5g to newborn goats at birth, but says nothing for adults. The other info. is for cows. It says to give cows 30g at freshening. What would be a good amount to give? I am going to go out and give her 15g of probis and give her a small cup of fruit yogurt that I have in the frig. If any one thinks or knows different, please get back. She not down or anything, but know that I would not be able to get a vet. out here today.

[Sondra Peterson]

Give the probios and it doesn't matter how much it can't hurt her give it often thru out the day. Also make sure she is drinking water and has baking soda out free choice. Take her temp. This grinding of teeth isn't a good thing. Get back to us hopefully someone that knows more than I will get on soon. I would also give BComplex but would hold off of the antibiotics I think Vicki said at one time abt the probios she just squirts out an inch or two each time she gives it and doesn't worry abt cc or anything. Yogurt needs to be live culture like Dannon plain and it says so on the carton.

[Sondra Peterson]

Thought this might help in case you haven't read it.

reprinted with permission from Sue Reith.

Ketosis by Sue Reith
the Ketosis is a word that gets bandied about a lot, indiscriminately in my view, and it is incorrectly cited to be the primary cause of a number of ailments. One that comes to mind, because I have seen the term mentioned a few times lately, is "Pregnancy Ketosis". There is no such animal! There is pregnancy, which is one condition, and there is ketosis, which is an entirely separate condition. While under some circumstances during pregnancy or lactation a ketosis can develop as a 'secondary condition', it is neither limited to pregnancy nor to lactation, and can show up at any stage in the life of a goat. (Ketosis happens to people, too.) It occurs to me that the actual meaning of Ketosis is perhaps not well understood, so I will try to explain it: A technical explanation of the process would be: Ketosis is a condition brought on by a metabolic imbalance. In scientific terms it is defined as an accumulation of excessive amounts of ketone bodies in body tissues and fluids. 'Ketone bodies' are the metabolic substances acetoacetic acid and beta-hydroxybutyric acid. Acetone, which puts off a particular odor associated with Ketosis, arises from acetoacetic acid, becoming a symptom when the animal is in a ketotic state. All of these substances are normal metabolic products of 'lipid' within the liver. When they become severely imbalanced as the result of ketosis, an end result is liver failure. Ketosis, just because of what it is, is a secondary condition. The process that leads to it begins when the animal, for whatever reason, stops eating. This action is the primary factor that must be addressed. Without this initial act, ketosis would not happen at all. And it must be dealt with quickly, because when the animal stops eating, the sudden lack of an external energy source causes it to turn for survival to its own body's reserves for a replacement source of energy. These reserves are in the form of fatty tissue. In the words of Dr. W.C. Allenstein, DVM, a cow vet that wrote for Hoard's Dairyman for many years, "When this fat utilization occurs, free fatty acids are released into the blood stream and are used by the liver for energy. If this occurs at too fast a rate, the liver is bombarded with too many fatty acids, and there is an increase in ketone bodies released into the system. At a certain level the classic symptom of acetone odor on the breath and in milk [if the animal is lactating] will occur... The ketone bodies formed by incomplete fat metabolism by the liver create these symptoms. ... Today we know that anything that disturbs the body - other diseases, missed feedings, conditions disturbing feed intake, will create ketosis." In another article, written by Lori Ward, then a student in Dairy Sciences at the U of Wisconsin, she notes that when the animal is forced, by lack of an external energy source, to turn to its own body for sustenance, "The body fat is mobilized to supply needed energy. The mobilized fat is processed in the liver, and it tends to accumulate. In most fatal cases the post mortem findings reveal a fatty liver. During fat mobilization, ketone bodies (one of which produces acetone) are produced and circulated in the blood, hence the names ketosis or acetonemia." Lori notes that most of the accepted ketosis treatments attempt to raise blood glucose in some manner. The purpose of this is to provide a quick energy source for the victim, ending its need to live on its own body fat reserves as a means to survive. A classic example of how ketosis gets involved (and apparently gets all the credit!) is found in an article I wrote on Hypocalcemia <<http://www.saanendoah.com/hypoca.html>>. When a pregnant doe is being fed a dangerously imbalanced ration and stops eating a large part of that ration to instinctively try to correct the imbalance, the loss of this external energy source makes her turn to her own body's resources for survival. Since the babies are still growing in her it is extremely critical to fix the original nutritional imbalance, which in this case is a diet-induced calcium deficiency. Aside from having fetuses inside of her that are draining her of this calcium, it also has a deleterious effect on her muscle tone. Without calcium she becomes very weak. So she has weakened muscles, including the heart muscle, and at the same time is living on her own body reserves because she has stopped eating (and soon is too weak to eat) her imbalanced ration. When a pregnant doe becomes hypocalcemic in this fashion and is mis-diagnosed by a vet who doesn't understand the dynamics involved, and as a result she fails to receive calcium replacement therapy COMBINED with energy replacement substances such as propylene glycol or Nutridrench, with the result being a drained and weakened system AND ketosis, she inevitably dies either of 'unexplained' causes, or of what the vet labels 'milk fever', or 'pregnancy toxemia', or 'pregnancy ketosis', or 'parturient paresis', all of which are misnomers. And if he does a necropsy he will generally determine that the cause of death was 'liver failure'. I cannot agree that liver failure should be considered the actual 'cause' of death, but rather the 'result' of the animal's not having received a proper diagnosis and treatment for the actual combination of the primary cause, hypocalcemia, and the secondary cause, ketosis, because of which she dies. Liver failure, then, is not the cause of death, but simply the end result. The Ketosis is the secondary condition involved. Discovery of the primary cause is always of paramount importance to the survival of the animal. Please feel free to give a copy of this article to your veterinarian should you feel it is appropriate

[Al. Countryboy]

I did go and give her about 40cc of yougurt, most of it did go down. This is one of those fruit type yogurts with live cultures. On my second attempt I got about 10 to 20g of probios down her. The first landed on the dog. I don't think that she is grinding her teeth, but is continually coughing up her cud and chewing it and swallowing it down again. Up down, up down. I think this is more than normal. She is up but not her old self.and I may be over reacting, but think she is a little off, especially not eating much of her feed. My son will be home from college later in the day to help get her temp. We have had nice weather for over a week and they have been eating in a new section that has lots of lush new grass. This was an area (new pasture)that I have been not letting them go to until most of the other pasture was eatened down. This may have upset her tummy. Will keep a close watch on her, take the temp. later, give her more probis or yougurt later in the day and get back with you guys and girls later on in the day. I also remembered Vicki posting about squirting probis on her finger and giving it. Thank God for all those little tips and remembering them when needed. She is getting so big and babies maybe pushing her tummy around and causing some of this problem.

[Tango]

If you don't have it on hand, order CMPK gel now. You can get it online from PBS ANimal Health. I'd also keep Nutri Drench or Propylene Glycol just in case. Not saying that it is hypocalcemia but going off grain is a good indication of that. Just saying to be prepared. Best wishes for you, her, and for doelings!!!

[Sondra Peterson]

Do please put some baking soda out for her free choice if she just has an upset tummy will help. That new grass is more than likely what has her upset right now, but better you are keeping watch on her for anything else. Good Job!

[Tracy in Idaho]

Make sure you read this article as well --
http://www.saanendoah.com/hypoca.html

Definitely let her eat all the baking soda she will.

Tracy

[Mrs. Ed]

What does "grinding teeth" indicate? I've noticed my little month old baby goat doing this occasionally.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Grinding teeth is a sign of pain, as is head pressing. Where a doe will stand with her head against the barn and press her head into the wall. The problem is you can't tell if this is just a little "oh my tummy is upset" kind of paid or a "I have a broken bone" kind of pain.

Any reluctance to eat their grain when heavy bred and my girls would get a dose of probios, and 30cc of CMPK...really look around and find the liquid, it is so much less caustic than the paste, which stays in the back of the throat and burns it. You also can't use the paste in a true emergency, when the doe is down and not swollowing, where you can tube the CMPK liquid. Our coop sells it so it can't be that hard to find in catalogs.

If you picked out all the alfalfa pellets of her food in one day, how much would it measure? Because if it isn't about 1 pound, than she is not getting enough calcium in her diet. If you are in a copper defficient area you can't count any of the calicum carbonate towards her dietary calcium needs unless you are bolusing or are really ontop of the amounts of copper in the diet. Even here with all the work I do on it, I have to keep dietary calcium out for the girls, or we will have problems as you are.

The first thing that happens is they refuse food, they are a little slow getting up (all things you can blame on pregnancy, but lets get real, unless they are having quads and are 8 years old or older, it's is a red flag, we are just dismissing it because it's down right scarry!!! then there temp goes down, they start shivering, if you don't get large amounts of calicum into her every couple of hours, all the propolyn gloycol your vet will give you to keep her energy up and keep her out of ketosis, which is what he will diagnose her with, will kill her and her kids. They will then tell you to abort her early, give some dex to perhaps mature the lungs (it never works unless she is less than 10 days from her due date) and she remarkably recovers when the kids are dead or the pregnancy is terminated, because it's the kids that are making these demands on her calcium right now. So nip it in the bud. You may also see reoccuring problems with this through the beginning of lactation, my problem crept back up 8 weeks after freshening, so watch her.

And I would hope that everyone with goats bred has CMPK, Probios and Sue Reith's article on hand, I know I do. Vicki

[Al. Countryboy]

I spent most of the day with the girls. This morning my doe came out of the barn and did go to the woods with the others. She started off eating dry leaves and dry grasses. She gradually started eating good with the others. We stayed out for an hour and a half and she ate good. She does seem weaker than normal though. She is so big and know that this could be slowing her down also. She does seem to be have a very small discharge which I am a little concerned about. Her poop is good. She does squat and pees a good bit only in small amounts as they seem to do in late pregnancy, but her pee is very dark. I noticed after giving the yogurt and probios that her cud stoped going up and down as often and she began to feel better. Later on in the afternoon I went and got a truck load of hedges and she and the others ate these very good. I only gave her half of her normal grain and alfalfa and she did eat some, but not a whole lot. Some of the others did not eat all of their grain either and I figure that this is probably from all this eating of the good stuff that the woods have to offer.
I do have baking soda and minerals out at all times, but haven't noticed she eating the soda. I am going to go down and give her some more probios tonight even though she seems to be much better than this morning. I don't have CMPK, but do have the posts about making your own from WAL-mart. With her looking as though she has a bunch of kids in her, Hypocalcemia has crossed my mind. I am feeding alfalfa pellets this year and hoped that this would keep this problem from arising. I am going to the co-op and see if they have any of these things that were suggested and if not will order. Will keep all informed on her progress. Thanks all!

[Al. Countryboy]

Vicki, I am probably giving each doe a little over a pint of alfalfa pellets a day and have been doing so for a long time. I do think that she could have quads or triplets at least. I will go first thing and get CMPK liquid and start giving it to her. Thanks for help.

[Sondra Peterson]

Sounds good am glad you are going to get more calcium in her. I would think until you get the cmpk that you could give people calcium.
Thank you Vicki for explaining this so good.

[Al. Countryboy]

Yes Sondra, Vicki has always been there when needed. I do appreciate your postings also on hypocalcemia. I had this article on my favorites and was going to read it after I came back. I did go down and give her more yogurt(50cc) and 20g of probios. I am getting very low on probios and will reorder some tomorrow if I can't find it locally. Sheba seemed to be feeling better when I went down and was eating hay when I left. Most of my girls are not real fun of alfalfa pellets, but eat them at times more than others. Was planning next year to gradually wean them over to alfalfa. Thanks Tango also for your post. How is your doe that kidded and was sick doing? Thanks everyone.

[Tango]

Originally Posted by Al. Countryboy

Thanks Tango also for your post. How is your doe that kidded and was sick doing? Thanks everyone.

You're welcome My Alpine Grace has recovered fully and her kids are doing well. Very intense week that was. Thanks for asking