Urgent help w/ Lactating Alpine

[Tango]

This was posted on GOAT 911 this morning but I need all the help I can get. My Alpine came to me about 5 weeks ago (Iposted about her on this forum). She'd gone through a severe case of pinkeye (posibly Chlamydial) blindness with previous owner. Had gone through bad health and poor nutrition due to our three hurricanes this season and the problems her owner had with their herd. She was bred back in early July and needed considerable weight gain when I got her. I had her on what I thought was good nutrition for weight gain and calcium. She kidded with twins Thursday (12/9). On Sunday she went off feed- both grain and alfalfa pellets- she had no temp, stool was a blob, gums gray, eyelids pink. I started with Red Cell at 12 cc per day and Nutri Drench (started w/ 2 oz. and backed off to 1 oz. daily) I wormed her with Ivomec Inj 1% at 1 cc per 50 lbs. orally and gave her a shot of LA200. She responded but declined again Monday. Not eating at all. Tuesday morning I started with Calcium Gluconate 23%. She had 13 oz orally throughout Tuesday. Again Wed. she looked better. Declined again Thursday. She's been given the Red Cell and Nutri Drench faithfully everyday and has had a total of 750 ml (jsut gave 4 oz. more orally) of calcium gluconate both orally and by injection as suggested on Fiasco Farms and GoatWorld. I rotate because she doesn't like either very much. She's also had ProBios and free choice of alfalfa hay and browse. Her milk has been enough to keep her kids going but they're not gaining much- they are active though and alert. Her stool is back to berries. She is drinking water and urinating but she doesn't drink what she should normally nor does she eat as much as she needs to be eating. She will not eat grains but will eat alfalfa pellets especially when I put a little baking soda on them (but then she learned to lick the baking soda off). Today I called the only vet who will see goats in this county- he's not a goat vet. He said that it couldn't be hypocalcemia if she's taken that much calcium and hasn't improved. He suggested a shot of penicillin and a drench of epsom salts to "flush her out." I'm at a loss as to what to do next. Has anyone done the epsom salt drench? I have CMPK gel coming today but the vet says it is slightly caustic and isn't recommending it- nor is he recommending the CMPK injection which I need a prescription for. Today she is lying around more than she had been. She is very slightly limping when she walks. She took some alfalfa hay, pellets, and some browse. I need creative options to get fluids and nutrition in her and troubleshoot what I have done so far. Please help.

[kathy H]

Tango take this with a grain of salt as I am no expert but are you warming water? In cold weater it helps to warm water to luke warm, animals will drink more that way. Maybe add a little gatorade to it? Make sure she stays warm, maybe put a tee shirt on her. Keep doing probees they can really help. Check with others but maybe add about a 1/2 half cup of calf manna to her feed to increase milk? What were the twins. boys or girls? Good luck.

[Tango]

Hi Kathy, thanks for your reply. She had one of each. Cute as buggers 50% Boer. Our temperatures are quite pleasant right now so I haven't warmed her water (we're in south central Florida). I did try to give her a "tea" of warm water with honey earlier this week when she wasn't drinking any water at all and she didn't go for it. Calf Manna is great; I use it with all my animals but she won't eat any. She won't eat anything but hay, browse and alfalfa pellets period. Overall I think everytime we scale one hurdle we confront another. On Sunday she had blobby poop, wasn't drinking water, and wasn't eating anything. She has improved but she's still not herself

[miclew]

Please let us know what goat 911 advises you to do. I have heard (though I haven't tried it myself) that adding some apple cider vinegar to the water will encourage her to drink. I guess goats like the taste of it.

Were you there when she kidded? Do you think she lost an excessive amount of blood?

I have had a couple of mommas do the gloppy poop thing for a day or two. I have also had a couple that didn't eat very well for a couple of days post delivery. The ones that had this problem acted a little mopey for a day or two but then did just fine. I give my new mommas Geritol twice a day for a week post delivery. (I have to drive too far to get Red Cell).

Hugs...

michele

[Mrs_stuart]

Tango,
You said that she was licking the baking soda off the food...does she have free choice baking soda??? If not, maybe she needs more of it...
And my girls like molassas in their water...you might try that.
Hope it works out. Good luck.

Belinda

[Tango]

Thanks Michelle and Belinda. I was told about post partum mopiness earlier this week but it has lasted too long. Belinda I just started offering baking soda- I thought the ProBios would be sufficient for her but she really likes the baking soda. I can offer it free choice. How do you do that? Just in a bowl?

[Milking Mom]

They will probably waste it if you just put it in a bowl. I made pvc mineral and baking soda feeders and used Plumbers metal strap to screw them to the wall. I bought a 10' stick of 3" pvc and cut it into 3' lengths. This will make 3 feeders with one of them being a little taller. You put a 3" cap on the top so you can take it on and off to add more stuff and down at the bottom put a 3" "Y" I use a clean out plug on the bottom of the feeder so all I have to do is unscrew it to clean out the bottom of it. Use he 2 little cans of cleaner and glue for the pvc. They lick the baking soda out of the "Y" part. Somebody might still have the web site that has visual instructions on this. It is simple to do I made one in like 10 minutes from start to finish.

[mpillow]

You can use a concrete block (2 holed type) put salt in one hole baking soda in the other. There is some stuff I think lactobacillicous that is an appetite stimulate normally used on kids. Try putting some grape juice concentrate in water pail 12oz frzn juice to 3 gal of water...my girls love it! If you have some bran cereal you might mix it with grain to further tempt her to eat....I usually give my girls a bowl of cereal right after kidding as a treat and to insure they keep blood sugar up. I had a really sick goat with mastitis last year that took a long time to go back on grain but I kept milking the good side eventhough the other ruptured (without gangrene) she has pulled thru wonderfully and big healthy and preggers, hope your girl gets better soon!!!!

[Tango]

Originally Posted by Milking Mom

They will probably waste it if you just put it in a bowl. I made pvc mineral and baking soda feeders and used Plumbers metal strap to screw them to the wall. I bought a 10' stick of 3" pvc and cut it into 3' lengths. This will make 3 feeders with one of them being a little taller. You put a 3" cap on the top so you can take it on and off to add more stuff and down at the bottom put a 3" "Y" I use a clean out plug on the bottom of the feeder so all I have to do is unscrew it to clean out the bottom of it. Use he 2 little cans of cleaner and glue for the pvc. They lick the baking soda out of the "Y" part. Somebody might still have the web site that has visual instructions on this. It is simple to do I made one in like 10 minutes from start to finish.

Wow! I'd love to see that. I might be able to make it if I saw a picture. Anyone have a photo of theirs or a link to the site Milking Mom suggested?

[Tango]

Originally Posted by mpillow

You can use a concrete block (2 holed type) put salt in one hole baking soda in the other. There is some stuff I think lactobacillicous that is an appetite stimulate normally used on kids. Try putting some grape juice concentrate in water pail 12oz frzn juice to 3 gal of water...my girls love it! If you have some bran cereal you might mix it with grain to further tempt her to eat....I usually give my girls a bowl of cereal right after kidding as a treat and to insure they keep blood sugar up. I had a really sick goat with mastitis last year that took a long time to go back on grain but I kept milking the good side eventhough the other ruptured (without gangrene) she has pulled thru wonderfully and big healthy and preggers, hope your girl gets better soon!!!!

I'm so glad to know your doe is back to normal. I'm hoping mine will be too. I've tried all sorts of enticements with her, to be honest. Thing is, she was picky before all this happened and now she is at the pinnacle of pickiness. All of my goats love apples. She won't eat one. Many people have told me about warm otameal cereal with brown sugar, she won't eat it. Anything in her water, she won't drink it. Fact is, I change her water six times a day. If it has been sitting there, she won't drink it My Nubian would probably take pizza if I offered it. This Alpine would ask why the sauce and cheese?

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

CMPK also comes in an oral liquid drench, it is what I use, and is an over the counter product. Jeffers sells it, large feed stores, Coops and mills carry it. The paste is way to caustic.

You are not continuing with the calcium enough. You give it every 2 hours until she is up, eating and feeling better. You are wasting your money with nutridrench, it is nothing more than a minimal electrolyte swirled into propolyn glycol, I can purchase a gallon for the cost of 1 pint of nutradrench. Once she is up and doing better go to every 6 hours on the CMPK orally.

Go to saanendoah.com or even search Sue Reith's name here, read her hypocalcemia information. Pre kidding it is hypocalcemia, post kidding it is milk fever (the low temp and wobbly gate is your keys to diagnosis). Make sure you inject her with warm fluids and calcium. It's pretty old school using Calcium Glognate! Sue also has an article on doing all this with Wallmart meds if your vet is no help. Or at least to use while you get a shipment in from Jeffers.

Order (and how much eaiser my life would be if everyone reading this would have this as part of their medicine chest) lactated ringers, either get the IV set up or the liquid, syringe it out, or insert the IV needle, under the skin high up on her shoulder, make a large fluid filled bubble as large as your hand. She will feel so much better when she is hydrated. Letting the kids nuse the little milk she is making during this episode is further robbing her calcium reserves and is why she is not getting better. I would take them away and give them bottles.

The blues and all that human emotion thing is bull. A doe who is listless after kidding needs immediate attention, it is you first clue something is going on. It's pain, it's milk fever, it's a huge worm overload from the hormones and stress of birth, but it is something.

Probios and rinsing her mouth with water after dosing her will make her feel much better. I rinse their mouth with kero syrup and warm water.

If someone who has them on file can post Sue's articles again for everyone to copy for this kidding season I would be much appreciated, perhaps you could forward them to fiascofarm.com and also to the folks on the 911 list. Vicki

[Stacy Adams]

I don't know if I can post the article, but I can give ya a link to it...
http://www.saanendoah.com/hypoca.html
and recomend that everyone copies it and keeps it in their goat's med book..

[Stacy Adams]

oops

[Tango]

Thanks. I've read that article several times- even posted a link to it yesterday on this forum for someone else. It recommends the gel when the injectable isn't available. I have the gel. the Calcium Gluconate probably has saved her life thus far if it is milk fever. It also probably irritates the heck out of her rumen- had GoatWorld or Fiasco Farms noted that and suggested Baking Soda free choice while she's going through the heavy dosing, the instructions would have been more accurately helpful. It has been a long day. I appreciate all the help- it is all a bit confusing right now. I'll let ya'll know how she awakes.