Please help me understand our goat!

Narnia75 · #1 07/02/15, 03:37 PM

We have had our goats for a little over two months now....a doe and her doeling (now 2.5 months old), who is still nursing. We have been taking them out browsing every day. Then, I decided to clean the pen while my DH stayed with them to graze/browse, in order to cut down on the time, since I cannot handle the doe.

My DH got tired of handling two leads getting tangled on each other continually, so we got a stake out and tied her to it in a wide open, space with no trees, while he held on to the lead of the doeling. Then he got tired of standing around doing nothing, so he released the doeling (since she stays with her dam) and came to the pen to do some work. That doe bellowed non-stop till went back!

So, this morning, he told me to stay with the goats and he would clean out the pen. As soon as my DH left, she began to bellow! I spoke to her and tried to comfort her, but she ate bites between bellowing for a few minutes then stopped completely!! Just stood around and bellowed! My presence did not count at all!!! : (

My little doeling (my baby) was perfectly quiet and grazing, but finally got so tired of her mother bellowing, that she went over to nurse. The dam quieted down immediately, as she rested her head on the doeling's back. When she ran out of milk, the doeling went back to quietly grazing.

The dam grazed for a few minutes, then went to bellowing again!! I got so tired of it, that I told the doeling, "Go nurse your Mom!" And she went right over and nursed again, which calmed her dam right away. Another few minutes went by, and she started bellowing again!!! And would not eat another bite!!

So, I called to my DH and told him that she wouldn't eat anymore. So, he came over to the pasture and she still stood there, not eating. So, I asked my DH to try to make her eat. So, he gave her some handfuls of the forage and she ate those and went back to grazing again.

Her background is that she was a bottle-baby and a daddy's girl.

But what is it with her not eating when he is not around?? We thought that she was bellowing because she was afraid when she was left alone, but she bellowed even when I was there!! I have almost as much contact with her as he does...we milk together, we walk them back and forth to the pen, I take her treats and forage to the pen....I don't get it!! Please help us understand!!

Agriculture · #2 07/02/15, 04:29 PM

The problem is that you are too emotionally involved with this animal. Which is the animal and which is the owner? Sure, maybe it is that she prefers the company of your husband, but you both have allowed her to condition you to give her what she wants and all she has to do is open her mouth to get it.

Who has trained who? Only in 21st century America is this a problem. Anthropomorphism is so rampant in our society today that people are actually starting to think that they may be unfit or even neglectful owners if they do not let their animals do absolutely everything that they want. People live in fear that doing what is in their own best interests or even convenience with regard to treament of their animals might be considered to be harsh, uncaring or even mean. The animal rights agenda has won. Even most animal owners have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker, and they don't even realize it.

Rosepath · #3 07/02/15, 05:04 PM

Your doe is spoiled. You have spoiled her. Give her an inch and she's taken a mile, and dragged you along with her. Forget trying to please her. It ain't gonna work.
As one other goat-keeping poster replied to your earlier thread "maybe goats aren't for you." If you had a two-year old who threw tantrums (dropped to the floor, kicking and screaming, I WANT CANDY!!! in the grocery store) would you ask others to help you understand him?
Maybe that's a rhetorical question.

RichNC · #4 07/02/15, 05:35 PM

I myself would put the Mom in freezer camp and reassess my time and actual need for some overly spoiled goats.

Narnia75 · #5 07/02/15, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agriculture

The problem is that you are too emotionally involved with this animal. Which is the animal and which is the owner? Sure, maybe it is that she prefers the company of your husband, but you both have allowed her to condition you to give her what she wants and all she has to do is open her mouth to get it.

Who has trained who? Only in 21st century America is this a problem. Anthropomorphism is so rampant in our society today that people are actually starting to think that they may be unfit or even neglectful owners if they do not let their animals do absolutely everything that they want. People live in fear that doing what is in their own best interests or even convenience with regard to treament of their animals might be considered to be harsh, uncaring or even mean. The animal rights agenda has won. Even most animal owners have swallowed it, hook, line and sinker, and they don't even realize it.

I am not emotionally involved with this animal, but I am with her doeling as I feel toward her as I would a pet. WE have not spoiled the dam. She came like this!! I am beginning to think that she is a neurotic goat. I was looking to understand goat behavior, so was looking for help, since we are totally clueless about goats.

She has had so many changes and stress with severe worm overloads and recently, bloat, we are afraid of stressing her anymore. Where is the balance between stressing her and working according to our convenience?

It may be clear to you that she was having a tantrum, but I do not know if she is feeling afraid, insecure...can't understand why she will not eat with my DH gone. Maybe she felt abandoned again like when she was forced to leave her home? I would like to understand her thoughts and feelings so that we can live peacefully together. These are our only two goats and I have been told over and over again that we needed to get goats that we can have a relationship with and I can see that that would make life much easier with a dairy goat.

We also have the neighbors to consider. Her bellowing is so loud that it rings throughout the whole town!

Are there others out there that have or had this kind of problem with their goat?

RichNC · #6 07/02/15, 06:12 PM

NO, you are projecting on her, get some proper fencing and let them go, or get rid of her, because what you and your husand are doing it not helping.

nchobbyfarm · #7 07/02/15, 06:23 PM

Yes there are others that had this type of problem. Others are giving you good advice but their delivery is making you feel attacked. She is training you! Possibly because of y'all or probably because of her previous owner. They had a reason to sell her. Maybe this is why but they weren't honest with you. Let her bellow, she will eventually tire of it when she doesn't get her way. If that is not possible because of the noise and neighbors, I suggest getting rid of her.

ETA- about her not eating, I once had a dog trainer tell me he fed his dogs collards. I told him my dogs wouldn't eat collards. He said his wouldn't either for the first 7 days. I promise, she will eat when she gets hungry as long as food is available.

Agriculture · #8 07/02/15, 06:54 PM

OK, fair enough. You made your position more clear, but the basic premise is the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narnia75

I am not emotionally involved with this animal, Poor choice of words on my part. Rich said it better, you're projecting. The result will still be the same. but I am with her doeling as I feel toward her as I would a pet. Big mistake. You'll run into similar problems with her as a result. It is not a pet, it is livestock. When you understand the difference it will help you to much more effectively deal with her. WE have not spoiled the dam. She came like this!! Your fault, my fault, nobody's fault, she still is, and you have to learn how to deal with the hand you're dealt. I am beginning to think that she is a neurotic goat. Easy way to reflect blame and to justify your failure to understand her behavior, which is partly due to your inexperience. I was looking to understand goat behavior, so was looking for help, since we are totally clueless about goats. Keep referring back to that admission. You don't even know yet what you don't know. Since what you're doing is not working, at least accept that others with more experience might be reading something more into the situation than you can appreciate yet.
She has had so many changes and stress with severe worm overloads and recently, bloat, we are afraid of stressing her anymore. Where is the balance between stressing her and working according to our convenience? Simple. She does what you want her to do, when you want her to do it. She goes in whatever pasture you want, when you want her to. The entire new situation is going to cause some stress for her no matter what you do. Continue to provide proper care and medications when warrented. What she "likes" or doesn't like does not matter.
It may be clear to you that she was having a tantrum, but I do not know if she is feeling afraid, insecure...can't understand why she will not eat with my DH gone. Maybe she felt abandoned again like when she was forced to leave her home? I would like to understand her thoughts and feelings again, way too much projecting and anthropomorphism. She's got to learn to live within the restrictions that you provide. Period. gso that we can live peacefully together. These are our only two goats and I have been told over and over again that we needed to get goats that we can have a relationship with and I can see that that would make life much easier with a dairy goat. No, you have a relationship with your husband, your children, your coworkers and neighbors. With animals you have them become accustomed to your way of doing things, and that includes learning how to make them do what you want.

We also have the neighbors to consider. Her bellowing is so loud that it rings throughout the whole town! That is immaterial to how you should treat the goat unfortunately. There is always going to be some sort of noise, and that can vary among individual temperament. Your situation sounds like it isn't ideal to bring in an adult from a new place. Hint: never get a Nubian, and you're going to have as many problems with the kid as with the mother, if not more,since it is not bottle fed.
Are there others out there that have or had this kind of problem with their goat?

I suggest that you find someone with a large herd who does with their goats what you want, and spend a day or more with them for a crash course on how they handle their animals.

Narnia75 · #9 07/02/15, 07:09 PM

Thanks, nchobbyfarm. They had to sell most of the goats due to his wife's illness. She was part of a dairy, so I don't think that she got that much individual attention, but she started bellowing and stomping the day after she arrived, so we did not create this problem. We ignore her for the most part when she bellows sometimes in the pen. But, when she was left alone in the field, she sounded like she was in a panic. Bellowing REALLY loud!! We thought that maybe she had gotten hurt!!

In general, maybe she feels insecure without the rest of the herd that she was used to being around. She is very sensitive to the slightest little change. One night, my DH did not close the kennel door that was inside the pen. She yelled and yelled till my DH went in and closed the kennel door. The more I ponder this situation....I don't think that she is so much spoiled as very rigid and cannot tolerate any kind of change. Can goats be neurotic? I do think that she has emotional problems... She doesn't act normal like her doeling does...from what we would expect to be normal behavior.

Either way, she seems to be a one-person goat, who bonded deeply with her former owner. He seemed to be quite fond of her and said that she was his 3rd favorite goat in the herd. Even though she may prefer my DH over me, she still is not very cooperative with him, either.

I would rather not have to get rid of her....I hate to separate the baby from her Mom...they are so sweet together, and the doe really has been a great Mom to her. She plays so gently with her kid. It's a joy to watch.

Narnia75 · #10 07/02/15, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agriculture

OK, fair enough. You made your position more clear, but the basic premise is the same.

I suggest that you find someone with a large herd who does with their goats what you want, and spend a day or more with them for a crash course on how they handle their animals.

I assume that you are male? Females are all about relationship. I was told to develop a relationship with the goats by the female goat keepers. So, completely different viewpoint from yours. This goat has been easier to deal with, as we have tried to develop a relationship with her by showing her love. She really has made a lot of progress in that she is not aggressive toward my DH anymore and even allows me to pet her at times. She will even come to the gate now, to allow my DH to put the harness on her to be led to be milked, but still pulls as she gets closer to the milk stand.

I have read that many people have goats as pets. If so, I would assume that they have an emotional connection with them, as that is what pets are for. I have a great connection with the baby goat. She is my pet. She adores me as much as I adore her, and I hope that that continues as she grows up. She trusts me, and it makes it easy to control her. She is not just livestock to me. When she gets hurt, it upsets me. A woman thing.

We don't let our pets get away with misbehavior. We train them to do what we want. Understanding their mindset helps with that training. I had to learn about cat behavior in order to better train them. It really works to try to work within their frame of reference. Can you tell that I was a psyche major?

nchobbyfarm · #11 07/02/15, 08:26 PM

Then you already made your decision. you didn't need advice. You just needed to reinforce to yourself what you already decided was the problem and the cure. I hope all goes as you want for everybodies sake.

Rosepath · #12 07/02/15, 08:56 PM

Let me get this straight, you have trained a cat?
Guinness Book of World Records, coming up.

Agriculture · #13 07/02/15, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narnia75

I assume that you are male? Females are all about relationship. Within their own species I'd always assumed. I was told to develop a relationship with the goats by the female goat keepers. And look where that advice has gotten you. So, completely different viewpoint from yours. This goat has been easier to deal with, as we have tried to develop a relationship with her by showing her love. Take some time to observe a herd's behavior, especially around feeding time, and then tell me if it bears any resemblance to what you understand as "love". She really has made a lot of progress in that she is not aggressive toward my DH anymore and even allows me to pet her at times. She will even come to the gate now, to allow my DH to put the harness on her to be led to be milked, but still pulls as she gets closer to the milk stand.

I have read that many people have goats as pets. If so, I would assume that they have an emotional connection with them, as that is what pets are for. You can call a Brahma bull, or a snake a pet, but that doesn't make it so. I have a great connection with the baby goat. She is my pet. She adores me as much as I adore her, Um, no, she doesn't. Try getting between her and the feed dish and asking her not to push you aside, out of love. and I hope that that continues as she grows up. She trusts me, and it makes it easy to control her. Agreed. She is not just livestock to me. Again, that is your problem. You don't want to understand what that does or does not mean. When she gets hurt, it upsets me. Nothing wrong with that. A woman thing. Well, I know plenty of women who I respect who are excellent herdsmen, who care for and about their animals, but who also have a pragmatic and sensible approach to their animals which allows for good management while not letting the animals' behavior run their lives, or drive their neighbors nuts.

We don't let our pets get away with misbehavior. Um, yes, you do. We train them to do what we want. Not by what you've written so far. Understanding their mindset helps with that training. Absolutely. You should try it. I had to learn about cat behavior in order to better train them. It really works to try to work within their frame of reference. Can you tell that I was a psyche major? No, but it absolutely does not surprise me.

Best of luck to you.

Jlynnp · #14 07/02/15, 09:02 PM

Just send her here, the other goats here will whip her into shape and we do not tolerate tantrum throwing.

stevesmitty79 · #15 07/02/15, 09:36 PM

Tough love is still love. Good advice.

luckyinkentucky · #16 07/02/15, 10:45 PM

Perhaps she is just a mouthier doe than her baby. I ha e some does that are very quiet and some that are so very loud! There may not be anything wrong with her, it's just her personality. I have one doe that is definitely more attached to dh than me, it just happens, just like with dogs. She will eat regardless of who is around, just make sure she has hay available in her pen. If you can wait it out I would suggest being patient as it sounds like she is making progress. However I only have 23 goats so I may have a little more leeway than some others. You will know when you are ready to be done with her, if it gets to that point.
I hope all goes well and they both work out!

VA Susan · #17 07/02/15, 10:46 PM

Narnia, I'm sorry that some of the folks who have responded have been less than kind to you. Most goat folks are the nicest people you will ever meet.
We have a goat who hollers for no reason too. We just ignore her. She was a bottle baby. Sometimes she sounds like she is being murdered. Her previous owner has a herd and some of his yell out like that too. His goats get very little individual attention. Some goats are just loud mouths! Our little buckling makes lots of noise too and has from birth according to his previous owners. He seems to have gotten calmer and doesn't holler as much as he first did. Thankfully we don't have any neighbors close enough to bother. I hope your goat settles in and that she will get over it.

gibbsgirl · #18 07/02/15, 11:19 PM

I don't know what your setup is, but honestly, I recommend getting more goats. Even if you just got some wethers to raise for meat.

Sometimes, it's much more efficient to advance on the learning curve of new livestock projects by having more than one or two of an animal.

Just helps you get that experience being able to separate personality behaviors from typical instinct behaviors a little better.

Hope you're making progress and not too discouraged.

**Terri** · #19 07/03/15, 02:02 AM

Narnia75, of COURSE your goat cares for you!!!!! Siblings love each other as well, but that will not stop one sibling from hitting another. And, then the Mom sticks the aggressor in the corner and/or gives him a swat on the tush.

Loving does not mean lack of conflict.

I have no advice to give you when you handle your goat, other than learn to assert yourself in ways the goat will understand. With goats-as with most animals- the strongest gets her way. So, act like you are the strongest, and when you get your way the goat will be more respectful.

Do not be afraid to assert yourself: learn the goat handling techniques and use them. Your goat will not hold a grudge: she will just assume that you are strong. Have you ever seen a toddler refuse to go to bed and the Mom does not get mad, she simply picks the child up and puts him to bed? The child does not hold a grudge and neither will your goat.

As for the goat not eating unless your husband is around, it is possible that your goat is defining your husband as a herd mate. And, it is WIERD for a herd mate to not stay with the herd, so she is calling him to come back and act like a proper herd mate! Goats expect people to act like goats, just as sometimes people expect goats to act like people! Goats are herd animals, and they are happiest with a herd. To a goat's point of view, she may think that your husband should not be wandering off, but should spend all of his time with the herd.

Maybe, anyways : I am guessing!!!!!!

OakHollowBoers · #20 07/03/15, 07:45 AM

Like Terri said, a herd mate thing. She probably did it when you first got her because she had just been taken from a large herd. Now, possibly in part to being spoiled a bit, she has decided your husband belongs as a part of HER herd, and she doesn't like it. Really, though, she'll just have to get over it. Getting a whether or 2 for company might help, though. She isn't used to a herd of just 2.