Breeding confusion

[mzgarden]

Up front, admitting we are new to goats - we've had our first two does since March 2014 as bottle babies.
I must be missing something important about getting them bred.
We would like to breed our girls Feb-Mar 2015 - they will be a bit over 1 year old by then. We do not have a buck but may get one at some point in the future. The girls are registered Nubians. Their breeder doesn't believe in breeding until 2+yrs, so I can't go back to her. We don't want to show and likely we would not keep all the kids. We do want the next step experience and learning and we intend to use the milk, so babies will be bottle raised.

Enough background (I think). I thought the best option would be to AI, but I can't find anyone that AI's someone else's does and with only two, I don't want to invest in the equipment. The people in our area with bucks are either not interested in breeding other's does or they are hours away.

I feel like I'm missing something. I didn't think it would be this hard to try to get our girls bred (and I haven't even gotten to --and is your herd/buck tested yet part).

Am I missing something, or for folks with only a couple does, is it always this hard to get them bred?

Welcome to goats!

The simplest answer is you will find it easiest to purchase and keep your own buck. I personally have never used buck service on my does but not everyone can keep a buck on their place for various reasons. Even when I had 1 doe when starting out I purchased a buck. The most bucks I had at 1 time was 6 total, all unrelated and purchased from other farms. I never offered service on them.

Look for the farms that offer stud service in the ADGA bulletin noted with a * for the breed you are looking for. Most likely if a farm does not advertise they offer stud service they do not. Travel is likely if you are looking for something specific.

I can only speak for myself and about many other places I have spoken with. Liability and disease exposure are two main concerns for any farm offering this service. It also has to be profitable for the buck owner. It costs a lot to feed, house, test (if that is your goal) and general care. Then there is the question of driveway breeding only or would the doe have to be boarded.

For many it's just more complicated, expensive and too risky to offer service. Easier to just to keep it simple.

I have offered service for the first time last year and again this year but only to a few. The people I met are great and I thought it went well for both sides.

There are risks to most things. Good luck with your search.

Your best option might be with the farm you purchased them from if they have an unrelated buck. It's also better to line something up earlier in the year, like Summer time. Some may have already sold their buck since no service dates had been lined up.

[mzgarden]

Davstep - thanks. I'll check the ADGA website. if I may ask a follow up question -- is it possible/acceptable to keep a buck and two does together? We have about 4 flat acres fenced. We have some smaller plots fenced within and different days, we open different gates. The girls wander as they choose and all gates have the option to return to the barn during the day.

I had understood bucks required stronger fencing and separation, which is why we opted against. We have no LGD and DH is on the property nearly all the time. We bring our goats into the closed door (previous horse) barn at night into their stall for safety. Adding a buck, if it requires separation (and a wether for company) is a little more than we wanted to take on during our learning curve.

What do you think?

[Clovers_Clan]

Yes, your predicament is very common. Here is a suggestion if you do not have show quality stock and are not planning to keep kids. Simply purchase a meat type buckling(plan for him to be 6+ months at your breeding time) keep him around long enough to get the job done then put him in the freezer. The cross bred babies will sell as economical meat weanlings. However it is hard to find a meat herd(other than the pricey show herds) that test for diseases. I lucked up a few years ago when I found a buckling from a large show herd that was one day from going to the meat auction with unsold surplus.

Another option is to get the best buck/buckling you can reasonably afford and keep him for several years. This would involve year round upkeep and you'd have the issue of who to breed daughters to if you kept any.

What breed are your does? February/March is out of season for most dairy breeds. They may not come back into heat to breed without artificial stimulus.

Originally Posted by mzgarden

Davstep - thanks. I'll check the ADGA website. if I may ask a follow up question -- is it possible/acceptable to keep a buck and two does together? We have about 4 flat acres fenced. We have some smaller plots fenced within and different days, we open different gates. The girls wander as they choose and all gates have the option to return to the barn during the day.

I had understood bucks required stronger fencing and separation, which is why we opted against. We have no LGD and DH is on the property nearly all the time. We bring our goats into the closed door (previous horse) barn at night into their stall for safety. Adding a buck, if it requires separation (and a wether for company) is a little more than we wanted to take on during our learning curve.

What do you think?

IME large breed bucks are no harder to fence than does. I have never had an issue with escaping the fence other than someone leaving a gate or stall door open. Even then they follow you around. Nigerians can be harder to fence but I don't think you are considering them. I had two different Nigerians that would ricochet off the barn wall where the fence met and clear a 5 foot fence with ease. Nubians, not hard to fence again in my experience only.

When I had the 1 doe and buck, they lived together for the first 6 months I had him until the doe kidded. Then I separated them as I was milking and did not want flavored milk. The issue with housing them together is only unknown due dates if you do not watch daily for breeding and off flavored milk when milking. I have ran a buck for months with my does when the were dry.

Once my doe kidded, I kept her doe kids and purchased another doe in milk and an unrelated buck to house with the 1st buck. If you are housing a wether with your buck it's just as easy to have two bucks instead.

The many bucks I have had over the years have been gentle. One did try me a couple of times as a teenager but a few lessons and he was friendly as a dog. He wasn't trying to hit me but looking at me confused and talking

Don't be afraid to get your own buck. You'll be happy you did in the long run.

[mzgarden]

Thanks. Our girls are registered Nubians. If we kept a buck, can they be with the girls or do they need to be fenced/kept separate and only together for breeding?

[Pony]

I kept bucks (one at a time) for a few years. To keep them busy when the does were ready to kid, I'd pen them up with a wether in what we referred to as "The Bachelor Pen." They had plenty of room and could beat the snot out of each other to their hearts' content.

They were happy.

Are you aware that Nubians are generally seasonal breeders? They may not stand for a buck until October/November 2015.

[marusempai]

At first I thought you wanted them to kid in February/March (it is too late for that), but I think you mean you want to breed them in Feb/March? I seem to remember you have Nubians, they will probably not be cycling then. If you want them to kid in 2015 there's no time like the present, depending on your goats they may not even cycle in January.

If you got a buck, there's no reason he can't run with pregnant does, you just want to get him out of there before they kid - I seem to remember some folks around here just put him in an adjoining pasture until the babies are all born, and them let him back in. He won't be all that interested in the ladies when they're not in heat. Once mine were all pregnant, Man Goat just sort of trailed after them because he didn't want to be alone, as long as he could see them he was fine. The reason for stronger fencing is to keep him from breeding does you don't mean for him to, if you want him to breed everybody it's not as big of a deal.

Oh, and I milked while the girls were running with Man Goat. I just made sure to wash my hands between touching fur and touching udders (I used baby wipes) and my milk was just as good as always. Took a little more care, but was not a big deal.

[marusempai]

Oh, also also, I highly recommend a marking harness so you have due dates. Those things are *awesome.*

[mygoat]

AI is not guaranteed to settle does nor is it easy to find someone who has the know how and the equipment for goats. I have a 50% settle rate after 3 years of AI on does with hormonally induced heats. Most does you'd have to go through 2-3 heat and breeding attempts to settle her. With the late breedings your planning, that's not likely possible. You'd have the most success watching does closely for duration of heats and monitoring mucous until its the perfect time to AI. Each straw generally costs around 25+ dollars, whereas even 'expensive' stud fees are usually around 75.00 for a high quality dairy buck.

If they're at least 80lbs, I'd breed them now and not wait. Seasonal breeders may not cycle well later and have decreased fertility. There is no reason to wait to breed IMO.

Generally if you want your does bred with a small herd, you'll have to drive them wherever to the buck when they're in heat and hope they settle on the first breeding. If you can find a herd you trust (and that trusts you), you can lease a buck. This is what I would try and with the late breedings, perhaps you can find a breeder that is done with their buck for the year and would be willing to lease him to you. I would strongly suggest putting a marking harness on him so you can have exact duedates, however. I'd keep him about 4 weeks after the last doe bred.

Personally if you want dairy, you should keep the bucks separate for most of the year. The bucks can live with the does through breeding season but it becomes more difficult to manage for dairy purposes if you run the buck with the does all year. You will generally have kids born earlier in the season (Jan/Feb) and if you don't have duedates, it can be hard to plan for kids to arrive when you're available to assist. Triplets in January can mean some or all kids are lost without help on a frigid night, even with a good mother attending. Bucks have been known to try to breed does in labor as well, and can be very rough on does to the detriment of them and their kids. In with pregnant does they are fine, especially through the winter if you only want to fill one waterer through the winter months. Usually this means feeding the buck better hay and feed however, which he may not need and may not be good for him. Depends on a lot of factors.

Occasionally you will have does that cycle outside of the normal breeding season and they could be bred shortly after kidding - this not only allows you to go through a dry period that would greatly benefit their NEXT lactation and body condition, but also causes an interruption in their other lactation - both cause a decrease in yearly milk yield.

Bucks can also breed their daughters a little too young - does bred very very young are usually done so by a brother left in the pen too long (lots of stories about 7 and 8 month olds giving birth...) simply due to size issues, but even a 60lb doe probably shouldn't be bred. 70lb is very iffy. In a large herd, matriarchs would keep the bucks' attention away from the doelings to some degree, plus his attention is always divided anyways in a large herd. In a herd of 2 does, some kids, and a buck - everybody gets a good amount of his attention.

[motdaugrnds]

I have raised quality pureblood Nubians (large ones) since 1996. The first few years I kept a buck (and friend) in a "buck house" at the back of the property. All goats could see/visit each other without being able to get to each other. This worked fine. However, during winter months I discovered the care of the bucks was a bit more than I could deal with; so I put the friend in the freezer and brought the "herd buck" up to the main barn.

My barn is constructed in a way that permits several areas to be separated whenever needed. I put the herd buck in the smallest end (16 x 25) and closed the doors. (Doors are too sturdy for any buck to get thru even in rut!) The does were then left to the largest part of the barn. Picture of barn below. My herd buck is at least 250 lbs; and not once has it pushed past any fencing.

When does were in heat, I simply alternated the days when they would get out to free-range, i.e. buck one day; does the next day. Usually I let them all free-range together. I've done this now for quite a few years and it has worked out very well.

[mzgarden]

ok, slowly I am trying to get used to the idea of having a buck. I know, it's old hat for many of you, but whew, reading about them, bucks can be a bit of a rodeo so I was really not planning on going that route but maybe it's time to jump into the big-people's end of the pool .
We have space in the barn and in the pasture where we could separate a buck if we had to, but it just wasn't what we thought we were going to do. Our girls will be a year old Feb and one has cycled once already. I guess we better figure this out as the season is fast approaching it's end. Fall would have been too early as they were not old enough anyway. Thinking, thinking, thinking.

Keep the inputs coming - I always learn.

[mzgarden]

deleted because I know the answer.

[V-NH]

I have a buckling that is around 9 months old and I am not even sure that he is breeding my girls. So, having one doesn't even necessarily mean they will get the job done. I've never seen any sign that he is interested in them or vice versa and I have had him in the pen with them since September. They mostly just fight and/or stay away from each other. If you buy a buckling, hopefully it isn't defective like mine is

[marusempai]

Originally Posted by mzgarden

Fall would have been too early as they were not old enough anyway.

Just to make sure we're clear, age isn't the important variable, weight is - I have a doeling that was born early April this year. She is bred to kid in mid-March 2015. She weighed 85 lbs so I put her in with the buck. It's fairly normal for them to kid around their first birthday, if they're big enough. In the words of my local goat mentor, "just keep feeding her, she'll keep growing!"

[farmmaid]

We have raised Nubians for 40+ years. Two comments:

1- Some bucks are night breeders and you will not see them breeding.
2- There is slim to zero chance that your girls will be cycling in February-March.
I have bred Nubians in early January but was lucky!

[mzgarden]

My continuing thanks. As clarification (sorry), when I said too young, it was less about actual age and more about the fact that no one had gone into a first heat yet. It may very well be that we are not able to breed until next Fall which would be sad, but not the end of our goat learnings. We love the girls and look forward to more goats. It just looks like, as newbies, we made some wrong assumptions. As always, appreciate the inputs.

[marusempai]

They could be being sneaky. I was never sure when mine were in heat until I had a buck around, then it was super obvious. Some does are not blatant about it.