Critique my feeding plan please....

[TeenyTinyFarm]

2 very healthy well grown weathers. They are used as brush goats. I recently took them off of grain as they approached 6 to 7 months. They had grown very nicely and in fact I was concerned they were a little thicker than they should have been.
Right now they are getting 1 cup each alfalfa pellets per day. (This is really to make sure everybody keeps loving me
They have lots of browse which is starting to get thinner as we move into fall and winter. I have hay set aside for the lean browse months. There are loose minerals out which they do not touch. I had thought to just ditch that and use the Replamin Plus that everyone seems to love. That way I know for a fact they are getting the vitamins and minerals they need. Thoughts? Am I missing anything?

[bluefish]

What kind of hay are you feeding? Wethers need a very balanced Ca/Ph diet. If you're going to feed alfalfa, you need to balance it with the right amount of grain. How much calcium is in your water? All sorts of things to consider.

That said, mine are on browse during the summer and grass hay in the winter. Grain is just for training treats. My oldest is 12 and never had any issues with him. It's the simplest way to do it, although not always the best.

[sisterpine]

I likely will never really figure out what my goats are supposed to eat. They are eating weeds they find and "top goat" with some alfalfa pellets. I mixed the minerals in with their regular feed.

[TeenyTinyFarm]

Originally Posted by thermopkt

What kind of hay are you feeding? Wethers need a very balanced Ca/Ph diet. If you're going to feed alfalfa, you need to balance it with the right amount of grain. How much calcium is in your water? All sorts of things to consider.

That said, mine are on browse during the summer and grass hay in the winter. Grain is just for training treats. My oldest is 12 and never had any issues with him. It's the simplest way to do it, although not always the best.

No hay until needed in winter (if much will be needed at all). My understanding with whethers/bucks is that I need to be more cautious of the phosphorus intake, hence I have dropped the grain altogether.

[mygoat]

It's a balance. The ratio of calcium: phosphorous should be 2:1 or somewhat higher safely, but just as you can have too much phosphorous, you can have too much calcium as well - in most diets its difficult to 'overfeed' calcium, however. A little more calcium is just safer than too much phosphorous, however.

Mercks has a good breakdown (this is for sheep but applies to goats as well): http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/mana..._of_sheep.html

Calcium and Phosphorus
In plants, generally the leafy parts are relatively high in calcium and low in phosphorus, whereas the reverse is true of the seeds. Legumes, in general, have a higher calcium content than grasses. As grasses mature, phosphorus is transferred to the seed (grain). Furthermore, the phosphorus content of the plant is influenced markedly by the availability of phosphorus in the soil. Therefore, low-quality pasture devoid of legumes and range plants tends to be naturally low in phosphorus, particularly as the forage matures and the seeds fall.

Sheep subsisting on mature, brown, summer forage and winter range sometimes develop a phosphorus deficiency. Sheep kept on such forages or fed low-quality hay with no grain should be provided a phosphorus supplement (ie, defluorinated rock phosphate) added to a salt-trace mineral mixture. Because most forages have a relatively high calcium content, particularly if there is a mixture of legumes, diets usually meet maintenance requirements for this element. However, when corn silage or other feeds from the cereal grains are fed exclusively, ground limestone should be fed daily at the rate of 0.02–0.03 lb (9–14 g).

Sheep seem to be able to tolerate wide calcium: phosphorus ratios as long as their diets contain more calcium than phosphorus. However, an excess of phosphorus may be conducive to development of urinary calculi or osteodystrophy. A calciumhosphorus ratio of 1.5:1 is appropriate for feedlot lambs. For pregnant ewes, the diet should contain ≥0.18% and, for lactating ewes, ≥0.27%. A content of 0.2%–0.4% calcium is considered adequate, as long as the ratio is maintained between 1:1 and 2:1.

Here's mercks with goats particularly: http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/mana..._of_goats.html

Calcium requirements are generally met under grazing conditions with either Angora or meat-type goats, but levels should be checked in high-producing dairy goats because a deficiency can lead to reduced milk production. Adequate levels of calcium for lactating goats are necessary to prevent parturient paresis (milk fever). In browsing or grain-fed goats, the addition of a calcium supplement (dicalcium phosphate, limestone, etc) to the feed or to a salt or trace mineral–salt mixture usually meets calcium requirements. Legumes (eg, clover, alfalfa, kudzu) are also good sources of calcium.

Phosphorus deficiency results in slowed growth, unthrifty appearance, and occasionally a depraved appetite. Goats can maintain milk production on phosphorus-deficient diets for several weeks by using phosphorus from body reserves, but during long periods of phosphorus deficiency, milk production was shown to decline by 60%. The calcium: phosphorus ratio should be maintained between 1:1 and 2:1, preferably 1.2–1.5:1 in goats because of their predisposition for urinary calculi. Phosphorus deficiency in grazing goats is more likely than a calcium deficiency. In cases of struvite calculi, the ratio should be maintained at 2:1.

How do I manage my wethers? Mine gets loose minerals, baking soda, water, and whatever hay I'm feeding the bucks and does (usually grass). He gets vaccinated. He does not get grain, copper bolused or BoSe, as he doesn't need it - he is obese and I'm not managing him as a reproductive animal and I expect him to do well on loose minerals alone for his requirements, which are minimal. All of my pets are managed like this (I do have 3 female mini goats who are not reproducing ever, so managed like wethers). Young wethers were managed a bit different when I used to raise meat goats - balanced 2:1 feed, hay, alfalfa pellets, coccidia prevention, deworming management, and pasture. Most of mine were sold at a young age so I didn't continue management further than about 10 weeks of age.

As for loose minerals, their intake will vary with the brand. Some have higher salt. Salt is the only reason animals really eat their minerals, and if there is too much salt they will eat only a bit of it, stopping when their salt desires are met wether or not their mineral requirements are met yet or not. If there is too much mineral, it tastes like dirt and they won't eat it. If it sits out or if it gets poo'd in, they won't eat it. Some may just not be used to this form, and I'd wait it out.

[bluefish]

Calcium and phosphorus are interrellated. The correct proportion is roughly 2:1 Ca:Phos. A balanced diet is needed to make sure that the body uses both of the minerals properly. Imbalances lead to most commonly bladder stones but can also affect bone and teeth development, the cardiovascular system and dispostion. Too much calcium causes calcium carbonate or calcium oxalate stones but too much phosphorus causes magnesium ammonium phosphate stones.

It's hard to be exact without having your forage and hay tested, but generally, grass hay is considered relatively balanced with an average ratio of 1:1. Legumes (alfalfa) are high in calcium and low in phosphorus, grains high in phos and low in calcium. I also think that most goats that are allowed to forage will mostly self balance if possible. It helps to know at least a few of the most prevalent weeds in the forage. For example, wild carrot is high in phosphorus, most legumes will be high in calcium. If you live in an area with more than 12" of rain, you are more likely to have more calcium and magnesium in the browse.

How much calcium is in the water? What is the ratio of Ca/Ph in the mineral/replamin?

This can be an overwhelming subject, but it doesn't seem to actually be that hard to pull of if you just look at a few things like above. As I said above, here forage and grass hay with high calcium water have not caused any problems. I would not hesitate at all to feed alfalfa if I also balanced it correctly with phosphorus.