Preparing for Nigerian Dwarf Kidding

Flodes · #1 10/18/14, 11:09 AM

I'm in need of some help and guidance. I just got a small herd of Nigerian Dwarf Goats (1 wether, 1 buck, 3 does) from a woman who was downsizing (they were her husband's hobby and he passed away). Two of the does look very pregnant. The previous owner said that the does were exposed to the buck around Father's Day, which would mean babies are due very soon. They're very timid and leery of humans and hard to catch, though one will come for raisins. I am very new to goats, but I wanted to get them out of a crappy situation. The previous owner said they are probably around 6 years old, but she wasn't really sure. What do I need to do to prepare the goats (and myself) for kidding? I know they are not up to date on any vaccines or wormings, but from my preliminary research, it seems to be too late for that anyway.

I'd appreciate any and all suggestions to get ready for the event. I've been doing research, but there's so much info it's a little overwhelming. And yes, I know I should have done the research before even getting goats (but this is where I am). The weather is getting colder and I want to get everyone taken care of. Thanks!

GoatGirl123 · #2 10/18/14, 12:14 PM

I don't have the most experience with kidding, but I do know the essential things.
There's no sense blaming yourself for not knowing what to do; that was in the past, and now is now. So, what you need to do is:

1. Supplies. Make sure you have iodine on hand to dip the kids' umbilical cords in; have small clean towels on hand to dry kids off; and have disposable gloves on hand. Also, just in case, have the closest veterinarian's phone number on hand.

2. Knowledge. Take a look at this website: http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2...ing-close.html

Also, a direct quote from a website (a long one!) :

"Ligaments are "gone". Feeling the ligaments and the tail head are my main warnings that kidding may happen within the next 24 hours. Note: Ligaments have been known to "come and go"; you can't feel them at all and then they reappear. I have not had this happen very often, but it can happen.

The doe's tail head is noticeably raised. You can practically put your fingers all the way around the spine right before the tail. Feeling the the tail head and ligaments are my main warnings that kidding may happen sometime within the next 24 hours.

"Far away" look in the doe's eyes. Eyes wide. The whites of eye may get slightly bloodshot.

Pawing at the ground (making a nest). A doe can start doing this many hours before kidding: they can do this all night long only to kid in the mid morning (ask me how I know). When a doe starts pawing a lot, I keep checking on her knowing she could kid anytime, be it in 1/2 hour or 12 hours.

Laying down, getting up, laying down, getting up, laying down, getting up.... It's really hard to get comfortable when you are really pregnant and going into labor.

Long clear string of "goob" (mucous) hanging from the doe's vagina. If the goop is amber, it is amniotic fluid, and kidding should happen very soon. (Note: The doe can start having small amounts of opaque white discharge a day, a week or even a month before kidding; this is the "plug").

The doe's udder in full and tight. Some people refer to the udder getting "shiny" or "glossy"; this would be because if the udder getting full and tight, and thus the stretched skin becomes shiny. Be aware that though it is most common for a doe to "bag up" before she kids, she could wait until the last minute or even not really start "coming into her milk" until after she kids. Every doe is different.

Note: It's alwasy good to have Mo'Milk Mix on hand just in case the doe kids without milk or without enough milk to feed her kids. This is an herbal formula I formulated to aid in milk production in lactating animals.

The doe starts drifting away from the herd. You don't want her having her kids hidden off in the woods somewhere; you might want to go ahead and put her up in the kidding stall.

The doe becomes more vocal. It a doe is normally quiet and all of a sudden starts making little sounds, it may be a good idea to put her up in the kidding stall.

The doe may start talking to her babies before she delivers them.

The doe may do a lot of stretching and/or yawning. The stretching can be the doe trying to get the babies in the correct birthing positions. Stretching along with tail arching are actually contractions. I've never been able to figure out the yawning.

The doe may become more affectionate toward you. The doe may even start licking you. It is ok to let her do this. Keep in mind this does not always happen.

The doe may become more afraid of you or not want you to touch her. If the doe is "wild" she may get really wild as she gets closer to kidding. Other examples: We had a doe who was always extremely friendly but decided she did not want to be touched a few weeks before kidding. In the middle of labor, as we were assisting her, she changed back to her "old loving self".

If the doe does anything that makes you say, "Gee, she never did that before."

Acting weird. We have a doe who's only sign of labor is acting slightly odder than usual."

3. Also know what to do when you see a kid, and what's normal, what's not.
If you see a kid's hooves coming out, that's normal. If you see a butt, one hoof, a head, or four hooves, that's not. Your doe may need assistance in any of these positions; unfortunately, I've never given assistance myself and we call a vet when something goes wrong.
Know also that if the doe is pushing a kid out for more than half an hour, something might be wrong; and if she was pushing but isn't anymore and hasn't pushed for an hour or two, that's not normal.
It's okay if a kid comes out really fast, like it just falls out; however, that might mean the kid is very small so watch that kid carefully.
Once a kid is out, you may need to rub it dry with a towel and put it near the doe's udder. However, if the doe is doing that, you should back off.
Finally, and this is the great part, take pictures, pictures, and more pictures -- and post them on homesteadingtoday! Because our rule is that if there aren't pictures, it didn't happen.
Oh, yeah, and don't worry too much. Usually nothing bad happens -- but don't relax too much until the kiddings are done!

And then you'll probably worry about the kids . . . well, you got yourself into this, and goats can be stressful, LOL. But totally worth it!

Ford Zoo · #3 10/18/14, 03:36 PM

Breeding around Fathers day should give you another 4 weeks to prepare. It is not too late to vaccinate and deworm. We usually give a vaccine booster several weeks before kidding to ensure the does create antibodies that are passed on to the colostrum. Worming is safe with 'some' wormers, we have used Ivermectin and safeguard late in pregnancy, but stay away from Valbazene (although listed as safe later in pregnancy). If the does don't look wormy, I would wait until after they kid, but no matter what, all does should be wormed right after kidding. Location will depend a lot on what use, a fecal will give you a better idea what to treat for.

Distaff · #4 10/18/14, 04:07 PM

If they needed rescuing, then ready or not, you did the right thing.

fencing?
rain/wind shelter?
good hay and clean water?
...if so, the rest and wait a bit.

A book is helpfull. Try the library if you don't have the cash. Niemann's book Raising Goats Naturally looks good, but I just ordered it, and am not very far into it. She has Nigerians. I muddled thru my first kidding with Colby's Natural Goat Care, and the doe did just fine.

Also, I really like Fiasco Farm's site for detailed kidding info.

Clovers_Clan · #5 10/18/14, 04:35 PM

Fiasco Farm is a great resource: http://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm
Be careful with changes in diet, don't overfeed grain, especially now. Good hay and browse will keep them healthy. Offer free choice loose minerals, NOT sheep mineral, goats need more copper(The bag should read 1200-2200 ppm for copper.) Offer free choice baking soda as well, especially as they are adjusting to their new surroundings. The biggest challenge to keeping a goat healthy comes down to diet and keeping their rumen healthy and balanced. Having a goat mentor on call for the kidding will help ease your mind. Most goats handle kidding without needing assistance. Check the "kidding sticky" on the forum. Somewhere there is an excellent illustration to identify positioning problems.

And welcome to goatdom! We're all very happy to help you through!

Clovers_Clan · #6 10/18/14, 04:40 PM

Where in Connecticut are you? Maybe we have a member nearby.

Oh, we goat people are quirky. We NEED pictures, in the goat world it never happened unless there are pictures. We love kid pictures, but we also crave pregnancy pictures, hoo haa's, udders and all. Like I said, quirky.

Flodes · #7 10/18/14, 05:58 PM

Thanks for the great info. What about kidding stalls? I was thinking of throwing something together with pallets in my shed (10'x11') because it's closest to my house. The only problem is that their pen (50'x100') Is on the other side of the yard. When the times comes, I'd like them to be safely locked up at night in case the kids come, but I'd also like for the girls to get fresh air during the day. Should I build stalls in their pasture/pen instead?

Can I safely and effectively worm without getting a fecal done? We've put a lot of money into their fence and housing, I'm trying to avoid vet bills if I can.

And I've been giving them 1-2 cups dairy goat pellets in addition to hay and browse. Should I cut out the pellets? They also have a goat block, should I switch to loose minerals?

I'm in Killingly, which is eastern CT (we call it the RI annex because we're right on the line). I'll get some pics up as soon as I can!

**mygoat** · #8 10/18/14, 09:12 PM

I'd evaluate body condition, fecal consistency, and eyelid color before deworming. I deworm when the doe kids, and that is the ONLY time I do 'routine' deworming. The rest is done with fecals, which is the best economically and for future resistance issues. If your vet is pricy like mine, then here is a link to a place that does FAST 5.00 fecals. I use a 5.60 flat rate shipping box at the USPS to ship it there. My vet charges 20.00 EACH so I can do 4 samples for the price of one locally. Of course, there is a lag time of a couple days though. http://midamericaagresearch.net/

Second, I'd start them on a SMALL amount of grain (work your way up to about a cup or so a day is my guess, other nigie people feel free to chime in if that is about right) and maximize their hay quality. If your hay is a regular grass, add in a ration of alfalfa pellets. I say this less because I believe does need calcium pre-kidding, but more because I do believe they need maximal forage quality pre-kidding. Forage is the bulk of their diet and when they are mostly filled up with kids, maximizing the quality of feed is important to prevent metabolic problems with negative energy balance, called Ketosis.

Vaccinate with CDT (2ml sub-q), Copper bolus (1g per 22lbs body weight), and give BoSe (1cc per 40lbs) asap. BoSe is vet Rx, I'd call and ask the vet if they think your area requires use of BoSe and buy a bottle. I pay around 40.00 for a bottle and it should last you a while. We also give a small dose to kids at kidding - study shows that it's more likely to be helpful to kids when given to the dams pre-birth, but it's cheap/easy to give a dose at birth. (Full size kids get 1/2cc at birth, minis get 1/4cc).

You should also have a free choice LOOSE mineral out there for them, which will help with any other nutritional needs they may have.

If they are not disease tested, before they kid is the best time to do so, so you know their status BEFORE they kid. If any are CAE positive, you'd like to know about that before kidding so you can know how to manage them and their kids. CAE is mainly transmitted through milk and Colostrum, and its spread can be stopped by pulling kids at birth and raising on the bottle - but you must be present to catch the kids and prevent them from nursing. Johnes can be transmitted that way as well as being mostly fecal-oral. Here, I test for CAE/Johnes yearly (CAE mostly because that's 'industry standard' not because I really need to, and Johnes because it can have a long incubation time and is 'industry standard'). I only test for CL when I purchase animals, once before I buy and once at the end of a lengthy biosecurity isolation period (3 months), but I try to only purchase/acquire animals that are abscess free to begin with.

Are you planning on milking them? If so, get them used to going into the milking room NOW. Practice milking them when they get their alfalfa pellets and/or grain on the milkstand. There is nothing worse than a totally unworked with animal being milked the first time. If you practice with first time milkers, they will be USED to the process and I rarely have a problem with FF'ers on the milkstand at all - I NEVER have a 'rodeo' or have to use hobbles or anything, and I think it has a lot to do with practicing long before I try to actually milk them.

I *hate* dam raised (or otherwise untame animals) for dairy as they are IMPOSSIBLE to work with. If you plan on working with these guys as dairy animals, I STRONGLY suggest you consider pulling doelings a day or two after birth and raising them on the bottle if you think the dams will either not allow you to tame the kids or if you do not think you'll have the time to spend out in the barn taming the kids down. The dams may tame eventually to, but until then they will not be easy to work with.

Personally, I do not have that kinda time to tame dam raised kids, so we pull all dairy kids and raise them on the lambar bucket and I find it extremely easy and well worth it. I know many people here successfully tame their dam raised doelings and think bottle raising kids is arduous. Everybody has to decide that for themselves and as their situations change, so may their raising method.

Either way, it's something to think about before they kid.

Personally as far as kidding goes, I'd lock them up together at night but do checks through the day and late in the evening to see if any are in labor. I do not like penning does away from the herd for long if at all. I would close them up at night if I didn't have an idea on duedate, just so they aren't stupid and kid outside on a cold night or something. I would make an easy little stall that you leave open most of the time. I would not pen up individuals all the time as that will add stress and is not neccesary. In fact, I don't use kidding stalls unless I have a few does kidding at once and I need to make sure a doe bonds with her own kids and not the other kids. As SOON as they bond, it's back into the main area. The longer apart, the more problems they have integrating into the herd again, and the further apart from their herdmates, the more stressed the does are pre-kidding.

Another thing to consider is moving the buck and wether away from the does so you have exact duedates next time, and less issues with not knowing when they're due. I find that extremely stressful, myself. :P

punchiepal · #9 10/19/14, 12:27 AM

Agreed, test now so you can know their status and decide on dam vs bottle raising.

If I had exposed my ND's on 6/15 I would start looking for babies around Nov 7 (145 days), but more likely within a few days after that. Mine like to kid 146-148.

Sept. 23 would have been 100 days bred. This is when I do some prekidding stuff. Trim feet, copper bolus, and prevent worm with Ivermectin Plus. (Since our 100 days fall end of Dec/Jan this is to prevent meningeal worms and get barber poles that are in an arrested state due to preg and cold weather. This time of year it may not be necessary)

Mine get alfalfa mix hay at this stage of pregnancy. If I feel they are carrying a large litter, 3 or more, then I will start giving about 1/2-3/4 c. alfalfa pellets 2x a day about 110 days (end of Sept). If they are carrying that many it can be hard for them to just eat enough forage. If they look "normal" pregnant then I sometimes hold off till about 3-4 weeks before delivery. Approx. 2 weeks before delivery I add in grains, starting at 1/4c 2x a day working up to 1/2 -3/4 c. grains right before delivery. After delivery amount of grain depends on what they milk as we challenge feed them. The more you milk the more grain you can have, when you stop going up-you stop getting more grain. We do this in forward and reverse once in while during lactation to check to see if feeding adjustments need to be made.

We worm the day they kid (or during labor) with Quest horse wormer. Get quest, paper plate, popsicle stick, 12cc syringe. Put quest on paper place, mix well with the stick. Use stick to put into 12cc syringe, tamp syringe on the plate to get wormer worked down. Get in all in and turn syringe upside down and do a hard quick tamp. Wormer should now be at the "wrong" end of syringe. Insert plunger to work wormer down, hopefully w/o too many air bubbles. LOL Dose at a rate of 1cc per 100#.

Squeeze plugs out of teats. Spray/dip kid's cord and feet w/ tri-odine. Take pics and share here, THEN enjoy the kiddos!

Pony · #10 10/20/14, 10:06 AM

You're doing fine, and we're not going to judge you for taking in these goats when they needed to come to you. There are lots worse mistakes than that - and we've made most of them!

Fiasco Farms has some really good info. Especially review the birth presentation pics. They may not make sense to you now, but once you're knee deep in your first kiddings, you'll "get" it.

All the best to you in your new addiction - erm, I mean VENTURE! Yeah, that's it.

Must take issue with what Clovers Clan said. We aren't quirky. We're goofy. And we want PICS!!! LOTS OF PICS!!!

Welcome aboard, keep your seat belt on, and keep your hands and arms inside the vehicle at all time. You're in for a great ride!

Flodes · #11 11/19/14, 04:04 PM

ImageUploadedByHomesteading Today1416434347.334431.jpg

The first round of babies are upon us!! Of course, she gave birth while I was in town for the day visiting my mom. I have a couple of questions:

Only one of the does appears to have popped (and they all look like her), but she's mostly not interested in them. That could be because we were around and stressing her out. The other doe is still huge, but it looks like she had some bloody discharge. Is labor imminent for her?

Also, I'm sure it's fine, but the kids are mostly nursing from the still pregnant doe. As long as they're nursing, it doesn't matter who it comes from, right?

It's bitterly cold and they're shivering. Is it safe to run a heat lamp out to their little hut? Maybe repurpose some baby sweaters instead?

Ahhh, we're so excited!

Flodes · #12 11/19/14, 04:07 PM

ImageUploadedByHomesteading Today1416434774.701527.jpg

The doe on the right is the mama. The doe on the left is the wet nurse.

Flodes · #13 11/19/14, 04:08 PM

ImageUploadedByHomesteading Today1416434863.957995.jpg

Proud papa is very interested in the goings-on in the girls' pen.

**mygoat** · #14 11/19/14, 04:53 PM

Its not going to HURT that they're drinking from the still pregnant doe, except now your pregnant doe's colostrum is compromised for her OWN kids when she does kid out.

I would get some powdered colostrum and make sure the next batch of kids get some of that to be safe. Even better, get some frozen colostrum from a local goat breeder (from a herd that is at least tested for CAE because that is the MAIN way that disease spreads is through milk/colostrum)

Congrats, boy are they cute!

Frosted Mini's · #15 11/19/14, 05:02 PM

And when the pregnant doe has her kids, she will probably either reject the kids that aren't her own, or try to feed everybody, and she may not have enough milk for that. Or maybe at that point, they will nurse their own mother more because the other doe doesn't have milk for them. I would watch all the babies super close...you may end up with some bottle kids. If they are shivering, I'd be worried that they weren't all getting enough to eat. Maybe milk their mom and try offering a bottle. My kids always do fine in the cold, so long as they are well fed and have a shelter. You could give them a dog house or 1/2 one of those plastic dog shipping crates to crawl under and cozy up together. I would not use a heat lamp...they really freak me out.

Flodes · #16 11/19/14, 05:19 PM

They're in a little hut that's like a dog house and they have lots of hay to nestle in. When I just checked on them, they were all snuggled up with mom and not shivering anymore. They were just shivering when walking around in the windy 30 degrees. It's going to get down to 25 tonight.

It feels like mama's milk hasn't come in yet. I have frozen human milk. Could I heat some up and give them a bottle?

The pregnant doe won't make more colostrum when she kids? I know that's how humans work.

Frosted Mini's · #17 11/19/14, 09:46 PM

How old are the kids? If they are over 24 hours old, you can use some whole cow milk, just the regular whole milk (not 2%) at the grocery store, warmed up in a bottle. Yes, she will make more colostrum all along, but it might not be as good a quality and if she's not separated from the other kids, they may continue nursing her--since they are older and stronger, there may not be enough left for her own kids. Have your does been tested for CAE? Is the first doe's udder soft or hard? Wait, do both does have a bloody discharge? I just noticed you mentioned that the one you think is still pregnant had blood. Is it possible both does kidded, since you missed the birth, you may not necessarily be able to tell. Just because a doe is round in the belly, doesn't necessarily mean she hadn't already kidded. Maybe one had twins and the other a single. Would make sense if they both kidded at once that they both care for all the kids.

Frosted Mini's · #18 11/19/14, 09:48 PM

Also, 30 or even 25 is cold, but not terribly so for dry baby goats with good housing. Mine do fine into the below 0's.

Flodes · #19 11/19/14, 10:52 PM

Just the still pregnant doe has bloody discharge. No sign of new kids yet. I'm pretty sure she hasn't kidded. She looks exactly the same as she has for the past few weeks whereas the other doe is round, but very much deflated.

I'm a little worried about the doeling because she is significantly smaller than the two bucklings, but she can stand/walk and is nursing. I just don't want her to get pushed off the teat be her bigger brothers.

GoatGirl123 · #20 11/19/14, 11:45 PM

If you're worried about the doeling, milk the doe and give it to the doeling in a bottle. It's better to be safe than sorry. If you don't have a bottle, you can use a syringe slowly, but it would take a lot of syringing to get a good amount of milk into her. I would be worried about her being pushed away; it happens with triplets sometimes, although triplets aren't uncommon. A simple trick is to pull up on her belly from underneath; if you hear it sloshing she's full, if not she might not be getting enough milk.