Thoughts on my two grade babies.

[Donna1982]

I would just like everyones thoughts on these two.

First one (white one) is It Happens JDs El Chupacabra (Eerie is her barn name). She is 2 months in this photo and will be 3 months tomorrow. She is a FAAAT girl 52 lbs at 3 months.

Second one is It Happens JD Give Me Gum-Gum (Gum-Gum is her barn name). She was 3 weeks in this photo and will be 2 months the 21st of this month.

I know they are babies but just want to know what everyone thinks.

[GoatGirl123]

I wouldn't know how to judge them properly, but they are beautiful!

[mygoat]

I like the black doeling better. Longer, flatter rumped, rear legs seem dead straight. White doeling is a bit steep, short bodied, and she looks to toe out in rear. I would like to see unposed pictures to tell a couple other things - I feel like the black doe might be a little out at the elbow and have front legs too far forward, can't see brisket, but could be the brisket conformation too. :P

[dozedotz]

They look healthy - not fat!! They are too young IMO to tell anything for sure.

[Backfourty,MI.]

I wouldn't be able to judge them properly either but they are awfully cute!
I agree they are definitely not fat! They look healthy!

[Donna1982]

Dona I agree I like Gum Gum a lot better then Eerie. She does look out at the elbows in these photos but doesn't seem to be now...growth stage ? I wish Eerie (white girl) was longer bodied and it will be something we will be working with when she is bred in 2016. We took the girls last night to the vet for health papers and the vet laughed at her. Said she was a butter ball lol. I like big healthy babies at least she should be an easy keep lol. I am excited to see what the judges think this week at the fairs.

[msscamp]

I, too, like the black doeling better for the reasons already stated. The white doeling also appears to be lacking in girth depth. I also have to agree that they are not fat!

[farmmaid]

....dark doeling.

[Frosted Mini's]

I like the dark one better too...but...it can all change with an udder and maturity.

Why are you waiting to breed them in 2016 (when they are 2.5, so kidding for first time as 3 year olds)? To each there own, but I definitely wouldn't do it as they may be harder to breed at that point.

[Donna1982]

Originally Posted by Frosted Mini's

I like the dark one better too...but...it can all change with an udder and maturity.

Why are you waiting to breed them in 2016 (when they are 2.5, so kidding for first time as 3 year olds)? To each there own, but I definitely wouldn't do it as they may be harder to breed at that point.

They were born this year June and July. I do not like to breed until they are at least a year. Well at least kid when they are a year. So I should say they will kid in 2016.

[mygoat]

I had a doe kid out no problems as an 11 month old this year. June baby... She was like 75 lbs in Dec so I bred her. I *hate* dry yearlings. :P

[fffarmergirl]

I'm no goat judge but I say they're adorable!

[Frosted Mini's]

Okay, that makes more sense if they are going to freshen in 2016, not wait to then to breed. They should certainly be well grown by then.

[msscamp]

Originally Posted by mygoat

I had a doe kid out no problems as an 11 month old this year. June baby... She was like 75 lbs in Dec so I bred her. I *hate* dry yearlings. :P

A doe? As in one? That doesn't really count. I don't have a problem with dry yearlings, but that is probably due to the 'once burned, twice shy' syndrome. I started out with Boer's, bred them to kid at a little over a year old, and ended up with a train wreck because every one of them rejected their kids and was a battle to get them to accept their kids. I have since changed my breeding management(and breed, I might add) to kid at 15 months of age, and I have a lot less problems with does freaking out and rejecting their kids. I kidded out 26 first time Kiko crosses this past May at a little under 2 years of age, and only had 1 doe reject her kids or need any kind of intervention of any kind on my part. Yes, it costs a little more, but it is worth it to me.

[mygoat]

I have had many does kid out at right at a year. I breed doelings to kid right around their first birthday. This was just the first one at 11 months, but it was an alpine and I don't let alpines dam raise their kids. Not that they couldn't - all have shown interest in their kids to some extent - but I don't have time to tame the dam raised kids, so they're all raised on the bottle. I find raising bottle kids far easier for dairy kids. The ONLY time I'd find it acceptable to hold over a doe to breed the next year is if I screwed something up with her growth/development and it was my fault (and she was worth too much to cull) OR if she was born late in the year (like june/july) and wasn't size to breed in the fall - and she was worth it to me to hold over. I don't think many would be worth it, for me personally. I don't like 'slow to mature' animals... to me that's not the point of livestock. But I digress, that's really not what we're talking about (I see it occassionally in some show lines of dairies, especially... but their goals are different from mine I guess. :P)

However, that included boers - which did dam raise - and alpines, which I pull kids on. I've personally not seen a correlation between kidding presentation problems and age at breeding... But I'm not including size of single kids because that I see in any age doe - just presentation. In the boers, I've never had a doe reject kids, thankfully... Or back when I was raising minis and crosses. I'd cull for that in boers or meat breeds, not cater to them by waiting another year to breed. But I suppose waiting an extra 3 months to kid them out at 15 months the first time probably isn't THAT big of a deal breaker - That would just be like a Feb born doeling waiting to get bred until December... Which I would do if necessary (growth) or if they were AI'd and didn't take in October (I can only kid around school schedule, so I have specific times to breed/kid them -I AI/live cover a specific weekend in October and live cover in December to get those AI recips that didn't settle pregnant). Waiting another YEAR I'm against.

[msscamp]

If it works for you, more power to you. Far be it for me to tell you how to manage your herd. I, on the other hand, raise meat goats and I expect my does to raise their kids. I'm not interested in a "somewhat interest" in their kids - I expect my does to jump right in there and get their kids cleaned up and nursing. In the event they are unsure, I am willing to help. I'm not interested in a herd of pets, nor do I do bottle babies willingly. Don't get me wrong, I will not willingly allow any kid to die, but I will not pull kids off a doe that is capable of raising them and any doe that rejects/abandons her kid(s) has bought herself(along with her doelings) an automatic one way ticket to the sale barn unless there is a damned good reason for the rejection/abandonment. There is no market for 'pets' in my area, nor do I have the time, energy, patience, or inclination to raise bottle babies. I never said anything about kidding presentations and the age at kidding. I'm not sure where that came from. What I said was the Boer's I started out with proved to be very poor mothers, and I had does rejecting kids all over the place. I will also not keep a doe who consistently delivers single kids. In my area it costs $237.00 to maintain a doe for one year given the current cost of hay - a doe who consistently delivers singles does not even pay for her upkeep.

[Donna1982]

Thank you all. We just got back from the OKC Fair and the judges like Gum Gum (black one) better. They liked both of them and the judge in the second ring told me she would of given Gum Gum Grand if she wasnt 1 1/2 months old. They also said Eerie was a fat girl. I just laughed.

We pull everything here. I will not deal with dam raised goats but we have dairy goats that I refuse to tame a dam raised goat on top of everything else I have to do. So for me the dam's size and health is the first and for most for us. I may breed Eerie to kid late 2015 we will see how she grows and go from there.

[mygoat]

Originally Posted by msscamp

If it works for you, more power to you. Far be it for me to tell you how to manage your herd. I, on the other hand, raise meat goats and I expect my does to raise their kids. I'm not interested in a "somewhat interest" in their kids - I expect my does to jump right in there and get their kids cleaned up and nursing. In the event they are unsure, I am willing to help. I'm not interested in a herd of pets, nor do I do bottle babies willingly. Don't get me wrong, I will not willingly allow any kid to die, but I will not pull kids off a doe that is capable of raising them and any doe that rejects/abandons her kid(s) has bought herself(along with her doelings) an automatic one way ticket to the sale barn unless there is a damned good reason for the rejection/abandonment. There is no market for 'pets' in my area, nor do I have the time, energy, patience, or inclination to raise bottle babies. I never said anything about kidding presentations and the age at kidding. I'm not sure where that came from. What I said was the Boer's I started out with proved to be very poor mothers, and I had does rejecting kids all over the place. I will also not keep a doe who consistently delivers single kids. In my area it costs $237.00 to maintain a doe for one year given the current cost of hay - a doe who consistently delivers singles does not even pay for her upkeep.

I have a feeling you think I'm arguing with you - I'm not, I'm discussing. I also have a tendency to ramble as my scientific brain doesn't turn 'off' and then likes to analyze tangents... sometimes resulting in annoying people. :P That's also why I posted about presentation issues with the different ages - not because you brought it up but because it's a topic that comes up from a lot of people on this forum in the past as an argument to wait to breed, and this is a public discussion.

Dairies and boers are different in terms of pulling kids. I have raised both dairy and boer/meat crosses and yes, my ways of raising them were so different, I wish I could have kept them in two separate herds for management ease. I did NOT pull boers and fully expected them to dam raise. Dairies are different and mothering ability here is not a culling factor or even something I look at.

Pets is NOT the main purpose for pulling dairies (at least for me) - but tameness is essential with dairies IMO. There is nothing worse than having to wrestle a doe you milk 2x per day - and nobody wants to buy an untame dairy doeling - I certainly don't, because it's a nightmare in management from a dairy standpoint. Sure, they can be tamed when left on the doe if worked with a lot, but I don't have time for all that - bottle raising is much easier in my opinion. Also, Her production is measured by milk, not by kids necessarily - and the best production records and personal use yields can only be had by pulling kids at birth. Totally opposite of the boers I raised - those I expected to stay healthy and only need handled a handful of times per year for routine work. I expected my boers to dam raise and do so well. I also expected them to kid at year of age or so. My contention is not really with 15 month kidding ages as that is only 3 months older than when I kid out mine (mine kid out at 12 months preferably, but obviously some natural flux due to my weird schedule and AI failures/successes), but with waiting to kid them out at 2 YEARS old - breeding at around 1.5 years (a true 'dry yearling). I'd never make that my goal for boer OR dairy raising. Thankfully with my boers that I had, they were mostly percentages and seemed to mother well out the gate - I think I had one that didn't care as well as I would like for her first set of kids well if I recall correctly.