Barberpole resistance????

[Doug Hodges]

I've been fighting barberpole for two months now. Fecal confirmed. Some animals show no signs. Some have shown symptoms once. Some twice and a couple more have had symptoms three times. I've started getting very aggressive with the Cydectin pour on. I've started dosing 7 days after the first dose. So far so good.

I need a new wormer. I want to dose everyone again in a week. I have 5 pregnant does. I may have it under control now but I want to knock it out completely. The reason for a new wormer is to kick them while the worms are low. Suggestions?

[Clovers_Clan]

I had big problems with Barberpole a few years ago. I hate to say it, but the most effective course of action I took was to cull all of the goats with low resistance. I had three does from the same Boer line and they were nothing but worm factories. Its taken two years to reduce the worm load on pasture. This summer no signs of Barberpole despite perfect weather conditions for them. Culling is a tough choice to make but with the rich genetic diversity you have in your herd you won't miss a few and your breeding program will be much stronger for it.

If there were a few goats that were testing positive time and time again, don't assume the wormer is inadequate. If you have high egg count on your pasture, they may be reinfecting those individuals as quickly as you knock it out.

[Twobottom]

Your going about this all wrong. You cannot eradicate barber pole. You simply cannot. All goats/sheep have some worm load. The best you can do is control it. When you dose, the worms that are susceptible to that wormer die, and the ones that are immune/resistant live. Everytime you dose you make the wormer less and less effective. You are helping to create a cydectin immune strain of barber pole in your area.

The consensus is that you do not treat until they show symptoms...with sheep we use a FAMACHA chart. When eye membranes begin to get pale we treat the individual. DO NOT TREAT ALL ANIMALS AT ONCE, especially those who are showing no signs. The wormers that are available now are losing their effectiveness, and you will speed up that process on your own farm and in your area by over worming. It's a race against time in many ways because the drug companies are not working on new wormers because the money just isn't in it for them right now. What we have is a limited number of wormers that are slowly losing their potency. Ivermectin used to be effective against barber pole, now its about as useful as water. Levamisol is still considered 'moderately effective' and cydectin is considered 'effective'. So right now you are racing to create a barber pole immunity to the most effective wormer available.

Please do some solid research, this is a very serious problem.

Treat only effected animals individually as needed, never all at once.

Use COWP, this was the main thing I found effective when I lived a hot and humid climate.

Strongly practice rotational grazing allowing at least 3 weeks if possible before returning to the same area.

Cull the constantly affected animals. Hard decision I know but it is a strong factor.

Copper, copper, copper. BPW does not like it. Closely watch out for anemia. Good quality Kelp goes a long way towards this.

Good luck.

[mygoat]

You cannot eradicate as said.

Research pasture management, it is vitally important to reducing worm load. Rotational grazing should be your #1 priority, not dumping meds down them. Fence off a huge area as you can afford. Then, using 2 electric nets, move them through the space, leaving them on an area for no more than a week at at time, making sure they do NOT graze the pasture down to nothing. (people suggest moving them when the pasture is boot-high). This can also reduce feed costs and improve pasture quality. If you have more goats than land, consider downsizing or increasing pasture size.

If your pastures dry up in a drought or cannot support the goats, then change feeding management if it's not ideal. Move hay up off the ground.

Copper bolusing is pretty effective at managing barberpole as someone else suggested. Make sure everyone has a dose. 1g per 22lbs body weight. I'd measure each one to make sure everybody is getting the correct dose. (I hate the presold 'goat' boluses - too pricy and weird sizes, too).

Treat those who get ill. Cull those that repeatedly need treatment under 'improved' management. Never stop doing fecals.

[dozedotz]

I agree with the others, Doug. We fecal test twice a year and watch them in between tests. When I say that we have no worms I mean that the results come back 0-1 or in one case 0-3. I have not wormed them for 5 years because at those levels I feel they are coping with the parasite that we are NEVER going to get rid of completely. Also, we have had goats come back with reduced numbers of worm load in a years time...which means they were lower on the current test than they were on the preceding test. Good food, clean conditions (I know you are doing both) and changing pasture is the best way to keep ahead of a problem that is not going to disappear, IMO.

[Clovers_Clan]

Here's the post from Saanengirl detailing the information she received at the Parasite Control Conference. Very helpful...

Takeaways from Parasite Control Conference

[Doug Hodges]

So no one has a better wormer to use? That is the suggestion that I was asking for.

I already treat the infected animals as they become infected.
I already copper bolus.
I changed pastures.
I don't have wet conditions. I have good slope and drainage.
I have nice tall weeds and grasses.
My feeders are all off the ground and I clean them out regularly.
I completely cleaned the barns and added fresh Cedar from a chipper.
I treated one with scours that I had confirmed with a fecal. 7 days later she scoured again. I treated her again. That was a month ago.
This scenario has been being played out over and over through the herd. The babies aren't affected at all.

This has been extremely difficult. In the past, one dose and its gone. Its coming back again.

I re-read my first post. I ONLY DOSE THE ONES SHOWING SIGNS and about 90% of the time that is scours.

I don't rely on the famacha chart because I have goats with Red eyelids that have scours and high barberpole count and I have goats with pale eyelids that have a very low count and are perfectly healthy.

SOOOOO. Its breeding season. I would like to worm the whole herd one time with something different. That's the suggestions I need. My philology is to copper bolus and worm before breeding season and to copper bolus and worm after kidding.

Looking for a different wormer???? For a one time deal???

Do I not need to do that? Do I just need to go ahead and worm with the Cydectin?

[Doug Hodges]

Originally Posted by Davstep

Use COWP, this was the main thing I found effective when I lived a hot and humid climate.

Good luck.

I have no idea what that is. I don't do abbreviations even when texting. I can google it and will though.

EDIT: Didn't find anything when I googled it.

[Doug Hodges]

Originally Posted by Twobottom

Your going about this all wrong. You cannot eradicate barber pole. You simply cannot. All goats/sheep have some worm load. The best you can do is control it. When you dose, the worms that are susceptible to that wormer die, and the ones that are immune/resistant live. Everytime you dose you make the wormer less and less effective. You are helping to create a cydectin immune strain of barber pole in your area.

The consensus is that you do not treat until they show symptoms...with sheep we use a FAMACHA chart. When eye membranes begin to get pale we treat the individual. DO NOT TREAT ALL ANIMALS AT ONCE, especially those who are showing no signs. The wormers that are available now are losing their effectiveness, and you will speed up that process on your own farm and in your area by over worming. It's a race against time in many ways because the drug companies are not working on new wormers because the money just isn't in it for them right now. What we have is a limited number of wormers that are slowly losing their potency. Ivermectin used to be effective against barber pole, now its about as useful as water. Levamisol is still considered 'moderately effective' and cydectin is considered 'effective'. So right now you are racing to create a barber pole immunity to the most effective wormer available.

Please do some solid research, this is a very serious problem.

You are going to have to explain more. When your animals scour and the fecal shows barberpole. Do you not treat them?

[Doug Hodges]

Originally Posted by dozedotz

I agree with the others, Doug. We fecal test twice a year and watch them in between tests. When I say that we have no worms I mean that the results come back 0-1 or in one case 0-3. I have not wormed them for 5 years because at those levels I feel they are coping with the parasite that we are NEVER going to get rid of completely. Also, we have had goats come back with reduced numbers of worm load in a years time...which means they were lower on the current test than they were on the preceding test. Good food, clean conditions (I know you are doing both) and changing pasture is the best way to keep ahead of a problem that is not going to disappear, IMO.

Thanks Paula but your goats have never seen a worm.

[Doug Hodges]

Originally Posted by mygoat

You cannot eradicate as said.

Research pasture management, it is vitally important to reducing worm load. Rotational grazing should be your #1 priority, not dumping meds down them. Fence off a huge area as you can afford. Then, using 2 electric nets, move them through the space, leaving them on an area for no more than a week at at time, making sure they do NOT graze the pasture down to nothing. (people suggest moving them when the pasture is boot-high). This can also reduce feed costs and improve pasture quality. If you have more goats than land, consider downsizing or increasing pasture size.

If your pastures dry up in a drought or cannot support the goats, then change feeding management if it's not ideal. Move hay up off the ground.

Copper bolusing is pretty effective at managing barberpole as someone else suggested. Make sure everyone has a dose. 1g per 22lbs body weight. I'd measure each one to make sure everybody is getting the correct dose. (I hate the presold 'goat' boluses - too pricy and weird sizes, too).

Treat those who get ill. Cull those that repeatedly need treatment under 'improved' management. Never stop doing fecals.

A lot of my pasture hides the goats because its so thick. I posted a picture of Cleo a few days ago and it was as tall as she is.
I just give the 4 gm twice a year to all adults and the 2gm to the babies the first time and 4gm the second time.

My vets office is about 8 minutes from my house and fecals are free. Trust me I use them a lot. They know me pretty well.

It just seems Im getting one a week with scours and I never had any last year or through the winter and its been some of my hardiest girls that never had it before. Its really weird. None of the yearlings or babies have had it. Only the girls in milk.

[Doug Hodges]

FYI. When I posted this morning, I knew I was leaving out a lot of information but I did it from my phone right after milking. I should of waited and put everything in one post instead of scattering it throughout the thread.

[punchiepal]

I had a few new to us goats that were brought in and they were fine for about 18 mo - 2 yrs. I know one came from a farm that had a bunch of goats come in with heavy worm loads, was told it was under control and fecals were clean. Only 1-2 problems the first year, winter fine, mid next summer problems started. Lost both early winter. NONE of my animals born here had problems, just those 2. Chalked it up to built up resistance prior to purchase. Thankfully, in some ways that they were bucks and were not pastured with the girls so it didn't spread.

Good loose minerals, COWP (coppasure copper oxide wire particles), rotation, go a long way, however sometimes resistance or genetics are too much to overcome.

[punchiepal]

Oh and new question was added to purchasing list-
What is your worming protocol?

[Clovers_Clan]

If none of the goats have been symptomatic, i.e. FAMACHA, bottle jaw, etc. there is probably something else at play that is causing the scours.

The high count is still a concern because the parasite will wreck havoc on any individual that is stressed or has a weakened immune system. I would especially keep a careful watch on the kids when you wean and if possible keep them in a fresh pasture, one that has not been used since winter.

What counts exactly are you seeing?

Barberpole is hell if you raise goats in the South. They can still be a problem even when you are doing everything right management wise. IMO your best defense is good pasture rotation and culling problem animals. Once your pastures are infected it takes a very long time to get the numbers down. At that point, pasture rotation helps but you've got to be able to keep animals off of it long enough to break the cycle. In the South, we're blessed with a high stocking rate because of the mild season and plentiful forage. But when it comes to goats, parasites can greatly decrease the number of animals you can wisely keep per acre. If you've already been as regimented as you can with rotation and you're still seeing problems you may have exceeded the limit. If you have a thick healthy pasture and its being under-utilized diversifying into other species might be wise to help reduce parasites for next season.

[Doug Hodges]

duplicate post

[Doug Hodges]

Originally Posted by punchiepal

Oh and new question was added to purchasing list-
What is your worming protocol?

I worm when they scour and fecal shows worm overload. I worm right after kidding and right before breeding (or during breeding since they started so early this year)

[Doug Hodges]

Originally Posted by Clovers_Clan

If none of the goats have been symptomatic, i.e. FAMACHA, bottle jaw, etc. there is probably something else at play that is causing the scours.

The high count is still a concern because the parasite will wreck havoc on any individual that is stressed or has a weakened immune system. I would especially keep a careful watch on the kids when you wean and if possible keep them in a fresh pasture, one that has not been used since winter.

What counts exactly are you seeing?

Barberpole is hell if you raise goats in the South. They can still be a problem even when you are doing everything right management wise. IMO your best defense is good pasture rotation and culling problem animals. Once your pastures are infected it takes a very long time to get the numbers down. At that point, pasture rotation helps but you've got to be able to keep animals off of it long enough to break the cycle. In the South, we're blessed with a high stocking rate because of the mild season and plentiful forage. But when it comes to goats, parasites can greatly decrease the number of animals you can wisely keep per acre. If you've already been as regimented as you can with rotation and you're still seeing problems you may have exceeded the limit. If you have a thick healthy pasture and its being under-utilized diversifying into other species might be wise to help reduce parasites for next season.

Ive been considering mowing it down. They eat the weeds as soon as they grow. I currently have a pasture that has been vacant for 2 months now. I may turn them loose on it pretty soon. Its starting to get overgrown.

[Doug Hodges]

While I've been discussing this, I've realized its only the milkers that have had this and it seems to have run through most of them at some point. Hmmmmm. I have all the yearlings running with them too and I feed them all on the same milk stands. Its got me stumped. I need to be more inquisitive with my vets and the counts on the fecals.