need advice

angelspeeper · #1 06/25/14, 08:09 PM

I posted this over on the guardian animals section but it doesn't get much traffic. I hope someone can help me out.

I got a LGD puppy (a pyre) she is about 4 months old now. I got her to eventually guard my flock of sheep but the problem is the ewes will NOT accept her. They are bullying her. I know this is a GOAT forum but most goat people use dogs so I'm hoping someone can help.

Here is a little more information on this situation...

She lives in the barn with the sheep 24/7, but does NOT have free contact with the sheep. She is in a chain-link dog kennel inside the barn, and the sheep are locked in the barn at night. (because of predators) The puppy is only in actual contact with the sheep when I am there and the pup is on leash. My sheep are somewhat calm. But the adult ewes will walk up from as far away as 15-20 feet. come within 1-2 feet of the pup, stop and look at her and then butt the snot out of her. They do not stop until I intervene. How do I get the sheep to accept the pup as their guardian when she is bigger? I don't want to make the puppy scared of the sheep that she will eventually guard.

So far I have only gotten one response and that was "If the sheep are butting her then the puppy is too close. Put her in a penwith the lambs for a few minutes."

My response is as follows:

The puppy spends most of her time in a chain-link dog kennel within the barn while the sheep have free access to all the other parts of the barn. The ewes seem fine around her (the pup) as long as she is IN the kennel. The pup is only allowed out when I can supervise her. (meaning I'm right there and pup is on a leash)

I was afraid to put her in with the lambs because she wants to "play" with them. (read it as....she gets too rough) They are her size so she wants to treat them like her littermates.

At first I thought it was the mommas being protective over their lambs. So I walked her out into the pasture where there were only OPEN ewes. The same thing happened. At first the ewes came closer like they were curious. But would stop about 15-20 feet away from me and the pup.(she was still on a leash) Then sure enough one would get brave and march right over to the pup, look at her and then proceed to butt the snot out of her. Now the pup is getting scared of the adults. She sees them coming her way and turns tail to leave before they get there.

We NEED some sort of guardian as we have a BIG predator problem. I had a female donkey...TWICE. Both times the donkey would attack the ewes. At first I thought it was just the one donk. Got rid of her and got a different female donk...same thing happened again. So I got rid of that donk too. After much hesitation we got a LGD pup.

Did I get a dud for a LGD? Is there any hope of convincing the sheep to accept the pup and making this work?

Cyngbaeld · #2 06/25/14, 08:37 PM

When you are out with the puppy on the leash, have a spray bottle in the other hand. Have it on stream, not spray, just water in the bottle and squirt the ewe in the face when she tries to butt the dog. Let the ewes know this is not acceptable behavior.

Clovers_Clan · #3 06/25/14, 09:51 PM

I would introduce them out in the open where the pup can escape. They will have to work out their pecking order and work out rules about personal space. The spray bottle is a great idea. It might also help to single out a more mild-mannered ewe to lock in the barn alone with the pup(under your supervision of course) and provide a barrier which the dog can easily escape but the ewe can't go through. This is a good opportunity for the pup to learn her manners about what is appropriate play, especially if she is being too rough with lambs. She and the sheep are still learning her place.

angelspeeper · #4 06/25/14, 10:14 PM

Thanks for the ideas. I will be giving these a try. Anyone else that would like to chime in feel free.

I really want to set the pup up to suceed. I do realize that she will not be real reliable for another year or two and that's okay. I'm just trying to introduce them to each other at this point. They will still need to work out their differences in time. But I don't want the pup getting scared of them in the mean time.

Backfourty,MI. · #5 06/25/14, 10:41 PM

We have only had out LGD's since last April & these are our first so I am no expert.
Our 1 was only 8 weeks old when we got him & since our goats were not used to a dog in with them at night or when we were gone he was in a dog kennel inside their paddock & pasture.
during the day when I could keep an eye on him he was turned loose with the goats.
Having him on a leash is Ok to walk the perimeter of his area & teach him leash training but other than that ours are not on leash's other than to go to the vet's.

I would try the spray bottle of water, you definitely don't want an LGD that's afraid of the herd it's suppose to protect.

If that doesn't work I would put him with the lambs & supervise. if he gets too rough with them then beat his butt, make sure he knows that's not acceptable.
Give him Lots of tough dog toys & things to chew on. LGD's need a lot of exercise, especially as puppies. It burns up their excess energy but also is good to help to keep them from any hip problems along with food for large breed dogs.

You might also be surprised at how ready & able she is to do her job at 9 or 10 months of age. Each dog is different I know but ours have been working & trusted since about 9 months of age. Nothing gets in our pastures & I don't worry about my goats anymore.

I should have said we got our 2 dogs April of 2013, not this past April of this year. Sounded kinda confusing above.

1stTexan · #6 06/26/14, 03:06 AM

Are you raising goats in the city? It sounds to me like you are putting a lot of restrictions on a dog to be in the country. Let the pup out of the kennel and off the leash. Let him run and the animals he is going to tend will make their own decisions. I've seen 2 Great Pyrenes pups, 6 & 9 months old, walk 15 goats into the woods to feed and back to the barn at night with no training. It was just natural. The older pup would lead and the younger would follow at the end with all of the goats walking in single file, just like a military formation. It was really something to see. They point being, they have to take charge, Too many rules takes that away from them.

ozark_jewels · #7 07/03/14, 10:53 AM

When introducing new pups to new livestock, the pup needs to be loose with the livestock or they will *never* accept them. BUT!! The pup needs a hidey-hole where it can be safe if the livestock becomes *too* aggressive. So give the pup a corner where it cannot get out of the livestock area, but it can slip under a panel, etc and sleep, eat, etc away from the aggressive livestock. As far as the aggressive livestock goes.......they do need to teach that pup some respect as a pup, but as the pup matures, their relationship will also mature and they will become the companion/guardian part of the herd/flock. But now, as a pup, the sheep do need to teach it manners, but not so harshly as to harm the pup. This is why a hidey-hole is a neccessity for new pups and new-to-livestock guardian dogs-livestock. It is a relationship they must work out over time. But they must be *together* to do this. Just make sure the pup understands that the hidey-hole is his to safely eat and sleep. I put up a panel with one side cocked so that the dog can slip underneath, but the livestock cannot. It needs to be a see-through partition or again, they will not become used to the dog living with them.