I suck at goats

V-NH · #1 04/25/14, 04:57 PM

I decided to put my pygmy buckling (3 months old) in with my year old mini alpines. I didn't think it would be a big deal and for the first couple of days they all got along fine. I just finished cleaning out my chicken house and had to run in to the pen because my largest mini alpine doe was ramming him into the ground. I moved him to a separate area, but now he is just laying on his side not doing anything. He is probably going to die and it is because of a bad decision on my part.

V-NH · #2 04/25/14, 06:00 PM

I went out and tried to stand him up before I had dinner. He stood up and took a couple of bites of hay, then laid back down. I went out just a couple of minutes ago and tried to stand him up and get him to drink or eat something and he just flopped down. I'm very upset with myself, because he was such a playful, friendly, active goat before I made the management mistake of putting him in with my mini alpines. I figured that he would be fine and he would have more space to run and play since it is a huge pen. I wish I hadn't been so stupid. I am also mad that my other goats are so absurdly aggressive. What do you do with a doe that has killed a baby goat?

weisemaries · #3 04/25/14, 06:26 PM

At my house she would be going in the freezer. We don't put up with mean goats.

V-NH · #4 04/25/14, 06:41 PM

Yah, that is what I was thinking too. It sucks, because she is super friendly toward people but if her behavior leads to this death of this baby pygmy overnight, I don't think I can let that go.

I took him and put him in the garage in a very large metal stock tank with lots of straw, food, and water. My hope is that if he is going to recover, being in a warm, quiet place by himself overnight might help. I'm still very mad and my wife is very sad because she got super attached to this little buckling in the month that we've had him because he is so friendly.

V-NH · #5 04/25/14, 08:10 PM

He died

nehimama · #6 04/25/14, 08:15 PM

I'm so sorry. Sounds like he had internal injuries.

V-NH · #7 04/25/14, 08:27 PM

I feel completely responsible for his death because of my decision to put him in with the bigger goats. I guess I know now that big goats kill little goats. It sucks that a really great buckling had to die for me to learn that. I don't think I am going to add any more small goats to my homestead in the future.

Awnry Abe · #8 04/25/14, 08:29 PM

Don't beat yourself up. You aren't the one that did the ramming. These things happen. We get the lesson, livestock pays the price. I wouldn't cull. Tomorrow, you will no longer suck at goats, at least as far as this lesson is concerned, and you'll avoid the mistake and save 1000 lives later.

V-NH · #9 04/25/14, 08:37 PM

Is this something I should have known? Is it normal to keep baby goats away from adult goats?

Squeaky McMurdo · #10 04/25/14, 08:43 PM

Cocoa hated babies too. I sold her. She was fine with babies that had mothers to protect them but bottle babies were prime targets.

**mygoat** · #11 04/25/14, 10:04 PM

Many people chose to keep kids and adults apart for management reasons, but not because of aggression. It is normal for goats to butt the new animal and if it can't get away, the aggressor don't really have an 'off' switch. They don't see it as cruel or mean, they see it as defending their space, resources etc.

A baby born into the herd that is present at a young age is handled much differently by the herd than is a foreign animal introduced of any age. Not only does a dam raised animal have it's mother to protect it, the herd will also behave rather gently around newborns because they know where it came from. Herd dynamics are interesting like that - when we had all the dam raised boers, the does would only nurse their own kids. When new kids were born and still wobbly, the mothers wouldn't really protect their kids, but the other dams would run away and/or gently butt at the newborns to get them to learn they're not sharing their baby's milk. The babies initially try to nurse anything possible, lol. The dams understand that those babies have a place here, but they aren't willing to share their milk with them.

Aggressive animals happen in almost every herd. It's not your fault that they are wired the way they are. Don't blame yourself too much, but learn from this too. Slower introductions are ideal, make sure there is nowhere for animals to get trapped and ample space at feeders, in the housing etc for new animals to have enough despite bullying.

Doug Hodges · #12 04/25/14, 10:38 PM

I've got 17 babies running with 10 does and a buck. No issues here. I don't allow them being mean. If they are, they get to deal with me. I spank them like I would my child except its usually a slap to their HARD heads or a punch to their shoulder or flank.

Tango · #13 04/26/14, 07:38 AM

I'm so sorry. We all learn herd dynamics sooner or later. I've seen a lot of bullying from herd queens. Some of it is quite rough but I've never seen it lead to the death of another goat yet I know it can happen and I've read about it. It seems counter intuitive but it is the way it is. The learning curve is steep but we learn. I wouldn't tolerate aggression that leads to death. Would sell her to someone with an established herd who with their understanding.

missythemom · #14 04/26/14, 08:24 AM

I had a very aggressive goat too, and she was just a witch to every other goat she was with. She seemed to only get along with humans and even then she had a bit of an attitude problem. Needless to say she didn't last here too long. With her it didn't seem like just a dominance issue, if you could have seen her you could just tell that she was "wired" wrong. Anyway, don't beat yourself up. Lesson learned so I would acknowledge and move on. God bless.

Awnry Abe · #15 04/26/14, 09:20 AM

No, it isn't a well documented, established, understood or consistently applied practice. Our pens are all unique, and at times, everyone shuffles the deck and has a pairing that they aren't too thrilled about. The take away here isn't that mixing adults with kids is bad. You learned a specific behavior about a specific goat. Head butting is totally normal. Bad things can and do happen from your everyday, garden variety establishment of the pecking order. Persistent ramming, on the other hand, is not normal and is something that you need to gear your management around with this particular goat. If it were me and were a cramp in my style because of pens and other resources, I'd move her on out.

V-NH · #16 04/26/14, 11:39 AM

Just buried him in the backyard. My wife was so upset about it (and pregnant, which doesn't help the situation) that she threw up. She bonded with him quite a bit.

I'm not sure that I am going to get another pygmy buck. One of the primary reasons that I put him in with my does is because my corral/future kidding area couldn't hold him in. He just slipped right through the cattle panels. In the back of the woods I have a big meat chicken pen made out of 2x4s and chicken wire that I was going to put him in, but my wife didn't like the idea of him being back in the woods. Ultimately I just don't think my infrastructure is set up well to contain mini goats.

I'm still mad that my poor choices led to such a great goat dying. He was super friendly. If you ran around the yard he would chase you and make little goat noises. I'm feeling quite a bit of animosity toward the goat that killed him at the moment.

Suzyq2u · #17 04/26/14, 01:30 PM

I'm sorry about the buckling

Don't beat yourself up..we had a similar situation here.

We had wildfire approaching so we put all the goats in
a small pen (bad idea). We had a new buckling, less than a week.
He was a SCRAWNY 8wk old. Star either gored him or he
got pushed up into a nail against a wall, we will never know.
We felt so bad about it. Lesson learned. I would probably put
a baby back with them, just not in a confined space. If it looked
like it was too rough, pull. We haven't had any that didn't come with
a mama though in some time. We kept star. She wore tennis balls
on her horns for 2 years. She still gets a temper on occasion and we
threaten to sell her. She may still go one day...but for now, she's here.

Hang in there, is your wife doing any better?

GoatGirl123 · #18 04/26/14, 04:02 PM

Don't feel too bad, we put our two WEEK old kids with the big ones. They have done fine so far. It's really not your fault.

PricklyThistle · #19 04/26/14, 04:07 PM

I have a big Nubian/Alpine doe who is a great mother and an awesome milker but she is a big fat bully too. She has slammed my little yearling Alpine doe so hard that I was sure she'd miscarry. Now I tie the bully when it's feeding time (when all the violence erupts). Oh, I should probably cull, but...yeah, she's a good milker.

Doug Hodges · #20 04/26/14, 09:55 PM

I had bullies. Someone else has them now. I don't have one goat that is mean. I won't have one.

I'm sorry for your loss. We all cry when we lose an animal here. Then we have a funeral.