Help me learn - not-so-great kidding today

[madness]

Hindsight is 20-20. I should have more aggressively intervened. I'm just wondering if I should have known that during labor. Here's the story.

Maxie (6th kidding) was showing early labor signs at 3 AM. Pawing, looking behind her whickering (sp?) and just a tinge of discharge. So I spent the night in the barn.

Next thing I knew, it was 6 AM and she was making quieter versions of pushing grunts, or something similar. So I figured she was finally having strong contractions. She was not pushing at all and she did not appear to be distressed. She was standing, lying down, etc. Same amount of just a bit of amber discharge.

By 7 AM, I was sure something wasn't happening that should be. I "went in" and found her cervix to be fairly tight. I decided not to go further and figured she was just having a drawn out pre-labor.

10 AM rolls around and my dad is yelling from the barn. I don't recall how long before she was checked but it couldn't have been more than 30 minutes. She had a clearly dead kid halfway hanging out, head no legs. I only had to pull gently to help get the kid all the way out. She was absolutely covered in meconium - not the bright orange I usually see but dark brown and tons of it. My opinion was that the baby had been dead hours. I've pulled a dead kid that died in the birth canal shortly before finally getting it out and this was quite different.

She did birth a second kid - rear hooves first. The baby was RIGHT after the first and I thought for sure she was dead too but vigorous stimulation and clearing the air passages got her going. She is healthy and fine.

So, should I have known that I needed to provide more assistance? I saw no "broken water", distress or pushing. The first signs of labor started at 3 AM but they were things I've seen goats do hours and hours before. The discharge told me it would be sooner though. I'm sure the kid died in the uterus, not during pushing.

Thoughts? I just want to learn to help in the future!

Oh final question - the afterbirth came out within 2 hours or so. It was very "poopy". Kinda gross looking really. Maxie seems to be standing hunched but not alarmingly. Does this call for uterine flush or systemic antibiotics? I only "went in" to the birth canal, not past the cervix. I've put a call into the vet about this as well. Just gathering opinions.

[punchiepal]

These are never easy. It sounds like you got the best outcome possible from the situation and that is what we always hope for. The positives - your doe survived, she passed the afterbirth, you have 1 live kid, and you intervened when you knew something was wrong. You say you think the kid died in utero. Probably nothing could be done there. We had one of these last year. Ours didn't fair as well b/c the live kid was VERY weak and sick from the dead one.

Unless, the cervix started to open when I touched it a little I probably would have given her longer also. Only thing I can think of is we look in on them about every 1/2 hr when we know they are in labor.

The "ewww" factor is what determines a uterine flush for me or slurried kids. If I think it is "gross" I would flush. (google Sue Reith and uterine flush)

[madness]

Good reading! I've read other Sue Reith things but didn't recall the article I found about flushing. Sounds like I've got some work to do..,

We were checking on her very frequently - 20 minutes or so. She has typically gone from zero to babies on the ground in that time so she was likely only a few pushes into labor. She's had very easy kiddings in the past.

Thanks for the comments!

[dozedotz]

Well, maybe you could have been one minute faster or two seconds later...can't see how you could have been "On It" myself. You saved your doe and the kid that could be saved. Honestly, I would say, "Great job" and "you are a very good goat mom." I have only dreamed of these kinds of hideous happenings...can only hope to do as well as you did...

[myheaven]

In my opinion the heavy meconium says the baby was in distress many hours prior to labor. And died before labor started. I would watch her to see if she starts to get an infection. You know smelly back end. You will know the smell. There is no gumm is there an infection. It's dang where's the pen g. Her cervix is most likely closed already.

[GoldenWood Farm]

I agree with everyone else, it sounds like you did what you could. I agree that the baby was probably in distress before mom even went in to labor. Sometimes you just don't know but I am very glad that mom is fine, you have one live baby and she passed her placentas.

Justine

[mygoat]

Don't beat yourself up. The improper position can cause the labor to go slowly, though it's not necessarily 'distress' that should've made you think to go in and help or do anything other than what you've done, IMO. The cervix usually starts to really open with stimulation from progress in normal labor, so if the positioning was slow due to dead kid/wrong position, then it could be pokey going. You checked the cervix, that's as most as you can do. I think you did good considering and it doesn't seem like there was anything you could've done to change that outcome. Congrats on a healthy doeling!

[Frosted Mini's]

Was the stuff on the dead baby like chocolatey-reddish? If so, that kid was probably long dead and decomposing (and the brown stuff is I think umbilical blood that's getting yucky), and I'd definitely try a flush of her uterus. No, her cervix should not be closed yet. I think you did just fine with your doe; you have a live doe and live kid and that is what counts. Keep a very close watch on her. If you have banamine, I would give her some--it will help her feel better, and is fine to give after they have passed placentas. I might be inclined to give a small dose of oxytocin as well, to help flush out any yucky stuff and shrink down her uterus. Frequent milking/nursing by a kid will also help stimulate natural oxy production.

Remember that it never hurts to check early, but obviously there isn't too much you can do with a closed cervix.

[madness]

Thanks everyone. I was honestly hoping I had simply missed something and this could be avoided in the future. But it sounds like its just one of those things that could have ended just fine or even worse. You just never know.

I don't think the kid had been dead very long - it wasn't decomposing. But it wasn't that perfectly normal looking, but simply not alive. Her lips were already pulled back over her teeth (yes teeth!) and the body just had a weird feel to me.

I did flush her about 4 hours after birth. Cervix was definitely still open. I do know the signs of infection as we've had that before. And I milked her tonight to help stimulate the passing of anything else.

We are on close watch! And thank goodness I have a two week break before the next one is due. 4 out of 5 does have either given birth or shown signs of labor in the middle of the night this year. I think I've had that happen twice in the last 5 years. Strange kidding season! Oh, and everyone is going to day 154 or 155. Hardly ever do we have anyone past 150. Weird.

[billinwv]

Kids that die a few days before labor obviously can't assume the birthing position and can't stimulate the cervix to open. Had the live kid came first the cervix would have opened normally. I think you had a kid that died even 3 days prior.

[GoldenWood Farm]

I have had does with kids positioned wrong and it took me a few hours to catch on (early in my goat years). All the kids ended up just fine and then I had a doe who went into labor like normal but I was presented with a HUGE (13lb) dead buck kid. If they die within a day or two of birth they wouldn't have decomposed much.

Everyone is right, generally a dead kid will not trigger labor very fast. Also a kid positioned wrong can do the same thing but in my experience the cervix still opens up a bit.

Justine

[Sher]

I think you did all you could do. I had the exact same thing happen..except the live kid was first to be birthed. I pulled the second and it looked like what you described.