? for those who sell dam raised kids

[dozedotz]

Talking to a friend last night who was disappointed that we have decided to start dam raising some of our pure bred Nubian kids...she sincerely from experience believes that we are making a serious mistake and will be unable to sell the kids for reasonable prices. Would you who dam raise agree? We are not a show herd, we are in MO where generally prices on goats are less than nationally (we have paid a great deal more for our breeding stock from other states) and we do not have a "national" name...although our breeding stock does. We have a closed herd.
We understand the great value of testing and we annually test for CAE. We had the entire herd tested for G6S and we also had everyone tested for CL & Johnnes when we purchased the breeding stock. We encourage any buyer to retest (at their expense) before they purchase animals from us. We have not had any problems.
Do those of you who sell dam raised kids have difficulty with customers who insist on bottle raised due to disease concerns?
Do you reduce your price since you are not bottle raising?
Those of you who have pure bred dam raised kids: do you register or provide registration papers with the kids? Or is it better to just advertise them as "no papers" even though the kid is not impaired in any way?
Thanks in advance for the free advice!!! lol Always love that on HT!!

[SeaGoat]

I think it all depends on what you are selling the goats for..

Milk goats might be better bottle raised because you have to handle them on a daily basis..
A goat that is being bought for slaughter, I personally would not want to put all the extra work of bottle raising in.

Personally, I dont want to spend extra money on a bottle raised kid... just so long as the dam raised goat is well socialized with people.

[CraterCove]

I prefer dam raised, well socialized kids when I purchase. I find bottle raised goats don't learn what not to eat from their mothers and eat really stupid stuff that none of their dam raised counterparts will touch. All of my dam raised kids are friendly and run up to greet us when we go out and come to their names. I don't see why a buyer would even know the difference really.

[paintpony]

I'm the same with CraterCove. When I had kids to sell (different state) there was no problem selling nice kids that were dam raised with reg. application papers. Here in AR back when I had Nubians, I didn't have a Nubian buck (sold him before we moved back here) so I got a Boer buck and sold unregistered 50/50 kids without a problem to people that wanted more meat on their dairy type goats. We kept the buck kids for the freezer.

[dozedotz]

Thank you both! We are coming from these perspectives: 1) we are really old...and this winter proved that fact beyond a doubt!! 2) we hand raised/bottle fed our breeders (boys and girls) and they are super, super nice goats...actually, especially the boys! Naturally, we are hoping that because we are old and home all the time and love spending time with the kids that they will be very gentle and friendly with people just BECAUSE...and not because we are hand feeding 3) it seems to us that if the herd is tested CAE free year after year and is closed, then the kids getting CAE from the nursing should not be a BIG problem...we know people who bottle feed and pasteurize and STILL get CAE!!
We got $200. to $250. for our kids this year...some buyers thought that was outrageously expensive, some said "you guys are not charging near enough" The ones who thought it was too much, didn't buy...the ones that thought it was a good deal - bought. We have one kid left to sell...a very pretty, spotted boy who is now back with his mom as our first experiment. We plan to advertise him as dam fed from a CAE tested herd for $200. We shall see...picture is him with his mama (I HATE taking them from their moms!! It is the worst part of raising goats).

[harvestmoonfarm]

I prefer dam-raised kids, because I've found from previous experience that bottle babies are a pain in the behind. They have no idea they're goats, find every way imaginable (and some not imaginable) to escape to be with humans and are, in general, more trouble than they're worth.

[dozedotz]

I actually think that we are not asking much more than what you could get for a good meat animal depending on the time of the year, etc. Thanks.

[Squeaky McMurdo]

And bottle kids are Noisey! Every time I go outside, they see a light turn on in the house, or there is a sound, or a plastic bottle blows across the yard, ad nauseum...I hear about it for hours afterward...even though they are weaned now.

The other goats just yell at me when I'm outside.

The friendliest, most well behaved goat I had was dam raised by Cocoa the Kid Killer, so it's all in the attention they get from people as youngsters.


Also if someone really wants a bottle kid for the percieved friendliness factor, kids can be pulled. Gemini was dam raised until 8 weeks. She took a bottle once I put it in her mouth a few times and got hungry enough.

[dozedotz]

Ours do love to be with us...which is fine because we are retired and have the time to spend with them...they are not really loud either...I think because we are always there!!! lol

[dozedotz]

THAT is interesting about Cocoa! Maybe it is mostly just the "born in" personality.

[GraceAlice]

I like dam raised kids. The nigerian bucklings I sell (never had a doeling) are sold for 200.00 and up. Not castrated, disbudded, registered, or anything of the like. And my goats sell for at least 200.00. Dam raised. And they are always SUPER DUPER friendly and act like bottle babies. Take the time to socialize your kids and you will have sweet (but not in your face annoying like bottle babies) kids.

I also think taking babies as soon as the doe has them is just plain mean. She bakes these kids for 5 months, takes the time and hard work to get the out of her, and doesn't even get to nurse them once while the humans take them away and they don't know what's happening. Kids and moms scream to high heaven. I honestly think that is just horrifying and could never do it myself. If your whole herd is tested negative for CAE, it seems like there might be a 0.5% chance the kids will get it.

[dozedotz]

Thank you, GraceAlice! I do believe that Nigerians are probably getting more $$ these days no matter how they are raised! LOL. The minis are very popular as pets as well as goats! We certainly know people who get more for their PB Nubians with breeding comparable to ours...but we are not dissatisfied...I would just hate to take less due to people just using them for meat! or whatever.
Totally agree on the separation from mom. Ours are not loud Nubians, but they suffer greatly when we pull the kids...for weeks! That is not an exaggeration either. I suffer right along with them. Now that the little boy has been returned to mom (he was gone less than 24 hours) she is a different girl! I don't think that she remembers that there are 3 missing!! He is the world now.

[MDKatie]

I do a combo of dam raising and bottle feeding. Kids from my CAE+ doe get bottled, and kids from my CAE- doe get dam raised. Because I would like to sell kids earlier this year, I'm getting ready to pull the 1.5 week old dam raised kids and switch them to a bottle. Once they're drinking well from a bottle I can sell them.

Interestingly enough, my dam raised doe is my calmest, easiest to handle milker. My bottle raised doe can be a brat on the stand. I'm not sure about my doe kid, as she's not milking yet.

[GraceAlice]

I saw your nubians on the for sale thread and thought it was a very nice price! Can you believe I actually considered getting one? LOL... Yeah, I almost jumped at the doelings but we are moving to Oregon so... we can't get more unfortunately. Craigslist is taunting. I need to block CL from my browser, lol.

I like Nubians so much more than Nigerians. Nigerians are so annoying to me! I love the big goats. Much easier to handle. And nubians are gorgeous... my baby (who is actually like 3 years old) is a Nubian... and I fell in love the moment I saw her. She's my little deer goat. So yes, I am partial. Thankfully we sold out of nigerians this year.

I would pay a lot more for a sweet, healthy, pretty dam raised doeling than and bottle raised, sweet, healthy doeling. I've also learned through these few years I've been raising sheep and goats that bottle feeding can have an affect on their mothering abilities. We had 3? sheep lamb one year, all sweet (but let's face it - sheep are annoying, lol), and the only one who completely abandoned her lamb was one who was bottle fed and taken away from her mom. None of my animals, goats and sheep, have ever done that except for one who was bottle raised.

I am one of those people who believes natural is best when it comes to animal husbandry. I don't disbud. I don't bottle feed. I don't vaccinate or give the moms anything before they kid. Babies don't get any shots. And that's how it has worked for me. I would much rather walk outside and see happy mommas with happy babies, grazing by their sides... than walk outside and see a barn full of baby goats screaming without their mommas. It's just so unnatural for the moms and babies... I can't do it unless absolutely necessary (bummer kids or mom can't feed the kid).

[GraceAlice]

double post

[dozedotz]

I once had a buyer (she bought a doeling, a buckling and a buck) say that she believes that those who pasteurize and bottle raise are those that have CAE! I was amazed! I told her we did not have it, had the paperwork to prove it and that we did the pasteurizing/bottle feeding to PREVENT it! Now, years later, I get where she was coming from!

[GraceAlice]

But, when I talk about all that "natural" stuff, I don't mean that I don't care about CAE/CL/Johnes/GS6. I will never buy an untested goat again.

[mygoat]

Dam raising means absolutely nothing about registration status and should never devalue the animals JUST because they are dam raised. I'd buy a dam raised animal IF IF IF it was tame. I would NEVER EVER buy a wild dairy animal I intended to milk (bottled or otherwise), and wouldn't pay very much for a wild dairy doe - she'd have to be superb and be something I'd be willing to wrestle with until I could get some bottle daughters out of her, and I wouldn't attempt to milk.

As for disease status, you can't get CAE from CAE negative dams, so as long as you have a couple tests on all your animals, and have good biosecurity, than you're good to go.

The reason I personally prefer to bottle raise is because there is NO WAY we'd be able to produce tame, sane doelings that way on our own farm - and with dairies, that is VERY VERY important to me because they are future milkers. If you can raise tame, sane dam raised dairy doelings than by all means! I know many people who do, but they can spend way more time with them than I can. (I also didn't like Coccidia prevention for the dam raised kids - what a nightmare). A good friend of mine gets her dam raised kids used to the bottle, too, so that they are tame AND so she can have her dam raising herd on DHIR milk test as well... She pulls the kids for 24hrs and bottles them during the milk test day.

There are many ways to dam raise/bottle raise. In the past with my boers, I let the does dam raise the kids for several days to get the colostrum and 'hard stuff' out of the way. I'd then pull the kids I wanted on the bottle and start them on milk and 3x per day feedings - much easier than pulling at birth, doling out colostrum, and feeding round the clock for those first few days. The kids are tame and I can sell them earlier this way.

Alternately I know many people leave the bucklings on dams and pull the doelings. This makes the doelings sane for future milkers, and the bucklings will mostly be meat animals if not spoken for and pulled onto the bottle very young (or they can go as untame, registered bucks - generally not a big deal IMO - I would buy an untame buck). This also decreases the numbers you have to bottle.

As for prices... I once had a man tell me I was charging too much for my goats because he USED to sell unregistered pygmy kids for 25.00 apiece. As if that made any sense comparing his unregistered pygmy kids to my registered kids, from a tested herd, UTD on BoSe/Copper/Cocci prevention/Vaccination (none of which he knew about). Sell them for what the market will bear an what you think they are worth - don't let the lowballers modify your prices especially if you're getting what you're asking for them.

[dozedotz]

Obviously, we are learning here. This is a first for us with our Nubians. I LOVE how Hummingbird is so happy and content...murmuring to her little boy, nuzzling and encouraging him. Takes me back to my own little darlings (they grew up to be big and hairy and rude, by the way)...how I loved them!!! There is something so wonderful about early infancy and the bond between mother and child! The other girls KNOW there is an infant in the birthing room, too. They are VERY curious. Tomorrow or Friday we will bring him out with mama and it will be interesting to see what they think about this! Hummer and the baby will have a separate area with their own shelter for a few weeks at least...
The kids that are sold and being bottle raised will go into the kid pen soon because the weather is being so cooperative...that will be interesting, too, because they are much younger than we usually have in the kid area due to bad weather.

[dozedotz]

Mygoat, as usual you are succinct and informed! LOL. You really are ahead of the game at such a young age, Dona. Thanks for the excellent advice...as always!