toxemia help please

dbarjacres · #1 03/02/14, 09:58 PM

Never dealt with this before and hoping someone here can help. I think this looong and terribly cold winter in WI (45 days below zero here) has been rough on the girls.

Case #1 Diamond. Yearling 1st gen MM. Due 3/27. Started ignoring grain last Saturday and by Monday she was hanging back by herself, Tues morn she was stuff in the rear and off feed totally. Had vet out, rather ignorant even tho she treats cows daily. Thought diamond looked fine even tho she is gaunt from not eating and staggering in back end. Told me I could give PG and Banamine. And at my asking she gave her 30 cc of cal glu. Diamond declined more yet by thur so I started calcium daily and switched from PG to PowerPunch and have given banamine 2x since vet visit on bad days. She is now eating better, alert and lively but still not 100% and very off in the rear yet. Should I switch to CMPK injectable? How much and how long? She has top quality 2nd crop grass hay, chaffhaye and 16% grain. Was ideal weight, now gaunt.

Case #2 Belle. 2nd fresh 2 yo MM. Had a single doeling Friday morn early on day 144. She is in the adjacent stall to diamond, quiet and safe corner stall. She is either obsessed with her doeling or is having issues as well. Her udder was only 1/3 full when freshened, not eating with guato. Still barely eating but acts just fine. Ideas?

punchiepal · #2 03/02/14, 10:55 PM

I had one freshen 2 weeks ago that didn't seem to fill her udder like the last 2x. Tried some baking soda mixed with her mineral (settle stomach and encourage drinking) and offered 3-4 tumms a day at the midday milking. One of them worked. She is perkier and milking well.

Diamond - weird question, but how is she pooping? Do they drop like they should or kinda "hang on"? If they don't drop like they should I would get her some vit d (vit d is needed to use calcium), a dose of bose, and some CMPK.

southerngurl · #3 03/02/14, 11:31 PM

Take their temps. Case 1, I'd likely start on CMPK injectable, especially if her temp is low. Case 2, I'd try some ACV in her water first (I'd give it to both of them- you can also top dress like a Tablespoon twice a day) unless temp is low.

dbarjacres · #4 03/03/14, 08:39 AM

I'll take temps when I get home. Both have normal poop. Diamond had bad scours for 10 hrs on thur but I cleared it up with GI soother

dbarjacres · #5 03/03/14, 12:48 PM

Diamond was 101.9 so rather normal but all symptoms say toxemia. Belle was only 101. Gave cmpk to both just now.

punchiepal · #6 03/03/14, 01:15 PM

I know it's still cold and winter and everything but did the vet or you run a fecal on Diamond?

copperpennykids · #7 03/03/14, 11:27 PM

Keep up the CMPK.

Sometimes acidosis will lead goats to going off feed, which then leads to toxemia/hypocalcemia. Baking soda drench 2X/day is a good idea.

The first goat, keep giving her things to keep her energy up, although grain is contraindicated. Lots of browse, different types of hay etc.

The 2nd doe, no grain. Any browse you can give her and more grass type hays until she gets her CA/Ph balance back. This could take a bit, so be patient. CMPK may be in order here as well, at least 2X/day.

Both goats would benefit from B-complex at least once a day.

redgate · #8 03/03/14, 11:37 PM

I have yet to find a vet that would say anything other than "toxemia/milk fever is incredibly rare!" Ketosis, on the other hand is quite common, and I dealt with that last year with one doe. Like you said, she went off feed over time, but otherwise acted totally normal. Then she started dropping weight, getting weaker, and finally her milk dropped off to less than 1/2. Vet treated with dex injection right into the jugular, and some propylene glycol tubed into her stomach. It took about 4 days for her to really show improvement, but after that, she bounced back fast. Her milk increased, and now she's great! You might want to consider that. My understanding is true milk fever is fast--like you tuck them in at night and they're fine, and the next morning, they are down. Or so I've heard. Ketosis, on the other hand, is slower--days to months, depending on husbandry and feed. Hope that helps.

dbarjacres · #9 03/04/14, 06:38 AM

If I could get them browse would be my first thought. However we are in WI where we just broke the prior below zero record and still have 2 ft of snow on the ground. So not till late Apr or may this yr.

MDKatie · #10 03/04/14, 07:41 AM

Just for clarification, pregnancy toxemia is ketosis. Milk fever is hypocalcemia.

copperpennykids · #11 03/04/14, 11:31 PM

Just for clarification, hypocalcemia (calcium and phosphorus imbalance) is the cause of both.

Called ketosis prior to kidding, milk fever after kidding.

You can have lactational acidosis too, which needs to be treated just like milk fever. (It all comes back to rumen health and metabolic balance).

PS Read the articles by Sue Reith. Fascinating and very helpful for addressing these issues.

copperpennykids · #12 03/04/14, 11:33 PM

For Browse in the winter we just go around breaking branches off of the evergreens and can feed a variety of fresh to the goats that way.

Do you have fir/pine type trees?

**mygoat** · #13 03/05/14, 12:08 AM

I'll have to read those articles - got a link? I'm doubtful they are one in the same. I have never heard that hypocalcemia is the only cause of ketosis per sey. They can concurrently occur, definitely, or cause one another because each cause a decrease in appetite at a time they should be taking in a lot of nutrition. Usually they arise due to improper feeding or weight issues, or when does cannot meet nutritional demands because of their pregnancy - but they are different metabolically. Ketosis is the result of altered energy metabolism/fat metabolism due to inadequate energy and increased metabolism of body fat reserves. Hypocalcemia is inadequate calcium homeostasis (it's rarely a case of calcium deficiency). Ketosis caused by some other disease that alters nutrition intake/metabolism is called Secondary Ketosis (thus, hypocalcemia could cause ketosis). I've never heard them considered the same thing, or ketosis before/milk fever after.

I'm reading over the section on ketosis in Goat Medicine - the only time it mentions hypocalcemia is to mention that 20% of sheep with ketosis are also hypocalcemic and it seems the theory is to treat for both mainly because ketosis could cause hypocalcemia - plus the extra treatment is cheap/easy so why not (same theory as treating for both Polio AND listeria whenever they have symptoms of either - both are cheap/easy to treat, so why not? ) It has one sentence in the hyopcalcemia/milk fever/Parturient Paresis portion that says that animals mobilizing more body fat tend to have higher Ca and P in the milk. Maybe that is the tie together? Late pregnancy/lactating goats can be expected to pull energy from body fat, however, and it doesn't specify 'ketotic', either.

MDKatie · #14 03/05/14, 06:52 AM

I disagree with Sue Reith about feeding calcium rich feed before freshening, and so does much of the dairy cow industry. Feeding balanced diets with the propery calcium (and phosphorus, magnesium, and potassium) diets prior to freshening allows the body to learn to mobilize calcium on its own, instead of relying on calcium from the diet. Then, after freshening, when there's a huge need for calcium, the body can mobilize calcium successfully. In high calcium diets, the body does not learn to pull calcium from other sources than diet, and the animal can get milk fever easily. Milk fever is much more common in dairy cows, IMO and in my experience, and I agree with their lower calcium pre-freshening diets. Here's a decent article about controlling milk fever in cows (different animal, but same physiologic process). The part about the low calcium diet for dry animals is on page 2.

And I don't believe ketosis is milk fever, only before freshening. Like mygoat said, it's metabolically different. Lack of energy is different from lack of available calcium, though I do agree they may occur at the same time, and I would agree that sometimes lack of proper intake of nutrients can contribute to milk fever.

And my original "clarification" post was in response to this sentence: "I have yet to find a vet that would say anything other than "toxemia/milk fever is incredibly rare!" Ketosis, on the other hand is quite common,"

And here's a good article about ketosis in goats. The treatment for ketosis is not calcium, and normally after parturition the ketosis problem isn't a problem anymore.

**mygoat** · #15 03/05/14, 10:57 AM

I'm not on my computer but Goat medicine did mention that feeding alfalfa is not likely to cause milk fever because while it's higher in calcium its also high in cations and may reduce the absorption of Calcium in the diet pre-parturition. Post-parturition animals tend to increase their absorption of Ca from diet dramatically, thus taking in more available Ca from the alfalfa despite high cation content.

Interesting stuff.

southerngurl · #16 03/05/14, 12:03 PM

Quote:

I disagree with Sue Reith about feeding calcium rich feed before freshening, and so does much of the dairy cow industry.

Cow's ain't goats and I've learned from several long time breeders that attempts at restricting alfalfa near the end of pregnancy gave them more trouble with milk fever, not less as in dairy cattle.

Hypocalcemia is known as a common cause of ketosis. Yes, not the only cause of course. But low calcium is a common cause of poor appetite late in pregnancy, and poor appetite late in pregnancy is bound to produce ketosis. Many goats with "toxemia" or "Ketosis" get better with CMPK injections.

**mygoat** · #17 03/05/14, 12:19 PM

Calcium homeostasis is basically the same among species. The main difference is quantity of milk produced and the components of the milk produced. Metabolism differences are accounted for and understood for the most part.

The 'goats aren't cows' probably isn't applicable in many arguments, IMO. To ignore the oodles of information from cow research is probably not beneficial. For things that are pretty universal between species such as hormonal calcium homeostasis, I'd think the findings in one similar species is applicable to others.

However, In goat medicine it does say not to restrict alfalfa but it's reasoning is interesting and supports the cation/anion feeding - the cations in the alfalfa likely DECREASE the absorption of Calcium pre-lactation. So in the end, we're all right. I think the main difference is that cows don't necessarily get fed alfalfa for their calcium source so in those cases, the DCAD diets are fed and do the same thing that Alfalfa does naturally.

ETA: Mercks says the opposite about the cations, saying that reducing high cation foods (such as alfalfa) late in gestation will be effective in goats as well as cattle. I'll have to re-read the part in Goat Medicine, maybe I misinterpreted it. :P

MDKatie · #18 03/05/14, 01:40 PM

True,they aren't the same species but the physiological processes are the same among species, when you're referring to things like lactation. We used a human physiology book for our animal science physiology classes because the processes were the same. Hormones have the same functions in humans as they do in other animals. Calcium acts the same in humans as for cows/goats/sheep/etc.

It'd be silly to think we'd have to take separate courses for bovine physiology, then one for ovine, then one for caprine, etc. Bovine ketosis is the same as caprine ketosis, and milk fever is the same throughout all species.

mygoat, the article from NMSU did state it's hard to achieve low calcium diets in dairy cattle because alfalfa is the primary forage source, so they focus on the DCAD diet.

coso · #19 03/05/14, 02:01 PM

I think a lot of times we relate ketosis with milk fever(hypocalcemia) because the doe that has ketosis will not eat because she doesn't eat it leads to low calcium. They kind of go hand in hand, a lot of the times. They may have different fixes (treatments) but they do go together a lot of the time. Like Camille said it is all about metabolic health.

copperpennykids · #20 03/05/14, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

Cow's ain't goats and I've learned from several long time breeders that attempts at restricting alfalfa near the end of pregnancy gave them more trouble with milk fever, not less as in dairy cattle.

Hypocalcemia is known as a common cause of ketosis. Yes, not the only cause of course. But low calcium is a common cause of poor appetite late in pregnancy, and poor appetite late in pregnancy is bound to produce ketosis. Many goats with "toxemia" or "Ketosis" get better with CMPK injections.

Very well said.

Don't forget that a cow has a LOT of bone to pull calcium from and that pound for pound a goat gives a much larger percentage of her body weight in the form of milk, as well as the fact that goats will have 2, 3, and sometimes 4 or 5 kids (with a 5 moth gestation) vs the one calf that a cow usually produces over a much longer gestation - a goat has different needs than a cow.

I have personally helped multiple goat breeders adjust their feeding program, both dairy and Boer goats, resulting in great reduction in milk fever cases (usually dairy goats) and a great reduction in ketosis (usually Boer goat breeders). Pretty much on the principles put forth by Sue Reith.