Hopefully some easy kidding questions

SkeeterBlue · #1 10/31/13, 09:23 AM

So I'm trying to get ahead of the game her for our kidding season early next year. I have a few questions and I hope y'all will bear with this new expecting goat mommy!

What day of pregnancy do I give CD/T? (how many days after breeding)

What day of pregnancy do I give Bo-Se?

What day of pregnancy do I dry off if momma is in milk?

What are the main symptoms of pregnancy ketosis?

If ketosis is suspected, what are the steps to treat from most important/fastest to sustained treatment?

What are the main symptoms of milk fever? When would/should I watch for milk fever in a pregnant doe?

If milk fever is suspected, what are the steps to treat from most important/fastest to sustained treatment?

With first pregnancies, how long do I wait while doe is in active labor before I intervene? How long is labor expected in first timers who are not having difficulty?

What are the most important items to have on hand for kidding?

I'm sure there are more questions, but these are the foremost on my mind right now. If you feel I am missing something important, please share!

Thank you all in advance for your wisdom and experience and willingness to share with me!

dozedotz · #2 10/31/13, 09:43 AM

We do CDT boosters and BoSe prior to breeding.
We also do the manicuring of their dainty little feet (ahem) and bolus just before breeding.
We dry off early...even the heavy milkers...some wait until a couple of months before due date.
Because we have not yet experienced milk fever or ketosis I think someone who has real experience should answer those questions.
Intervention is tricky. Many folks just believe that they should jump in to "save" the doe or kids at the first sign of difficulty...taking too long, seeing an odd presentation, etc....We have been lucky and the girls have always worked it out. I can tell you that the breech presentation with the back legs/hooves coming first is not a biggie...we have definitely had that one!! Otherwise, our biggest problem has been standing there feeling that she is taking tooooo long rearranging kids before finally giving birth with no problem! Also, sometimes it seems that she should not take so long between births of more than one kid...but again, all was well. We are more the "let her see if she can do it" types, I think. So far so good...BUT if you find you are the other type (and perhaps necessarily so) be sure to take precautions with cleanliness and antibiotics!!
Lots and lots of towels for drying and warming the kids! Nose suction apparatus, 7% iodine from your vet for treating umbilical and hooves come to mind immediately. We have never used the kid puller (but we have one present). Same with tubing for feeding a weak kid...never used, but we have it. We also give a vitamin E gel cap pretty quickly after birth...have only once ever given a BoSE injection (a buckling that appeared to be having some trouble with his back legs).
All is all, it is the most beautiful (and messy - be sure to stay until the afterbirth is lost) and exciting thing in the world! Birth is.
Have the phone number of your best goat mentor friend close...unless he/she can actually be there!! just in case it gets too "beautiful."
Probably you will get lots of help with this one...make a list of what hits you as the most important facts and go over it a lot...with someone else (like preparing for an exam) and it will "come to you" as the process unfolds. Good for you for getting prepared early!!

SkeeterBlue · #3 10/31/13, 09:51 AM

Thanks, Dozedots!

It is a frank breech that is giving me nightmares. I had a cat who had a huge kitten frank breech (didn't know until after the birth) that was born with a broken back. I just shudder to think about a kid presenting that way. And that is why I'd like an idea of the time of usual first kiddings. So the information I'm looking for is - Is the average for first time mom's 2 hours; 4 hours; 12 hours? What is normal average?

SkeeterBlue · #4 10/31/13, 09:54 AM

Oh, I guess a P.S. is in order. I have a ton of medical training so I'm not squeamish or the nervous type going into this. But I really need concrete information so I'm not standing there not doing something I should do or doing something I shouldn't.

dozedotz · #5 10/31/13, 10:02 AM

We have never actually timed it, but we have definitely been there from the first goo to birth most of the time. I just asked my husband what he thought was the actual amount of time...even went so far as to remind him of various births...but neither of us can get much past from one to two hours. Sorry! I would say that Meg took the longest last year...she dug so many holes and finally built a mound that would rival the pyramids before giving birth to her triplets...the goo started about three hours before she finally started really working on delivery...all the energy before that went into mound construction. I really DO understand your desire to 1)be there (knowing what the signs are) 2) not wait too long and risk losing your doe or her kids. I will feel exactly that same way AGAIN when birthing season starts. You just cannot predict when the birth will happen that is the worst, most awful birth ever. You can be prepared for odd presentations by studying what "the back" or "the rump" FEELS like at the opening, but when it happens (which it has not happened for us yet...and really, does NOT happen all the time) you may still not understand what it is that you are feeling. You will need really good lighting by the way, just to be sure that what you are seeing is a normal presentation of nose and toes.

SkeeterBlue · #6 10/31/13, 10:06 AM

Thank you!

I am starting to gather things for my birthing kit. A strong flashlight is at the top of the list.

dozedotz · #7 10/31/13, 10:09 AM

OK...you are undoubtedly much more familiar with anatomy than we ever were...that's a big plus for you and your girls! Remember that you will still probably benefit from having an extra pair of hands or more for "going in" should you decide that that is the best course of action. Our first delivery ever my husband and our grown son were both present and very, very helpful in holding a Nubian doe who was delivering Kinder kids (3) and I was not even doing anything invasive...just trying to get a good look at what was going on...they do NOT cooperate or like it one little bit (THAT is an understatement). If you need to "go in" you will need help.

GoldenWood Farm · #8 10/31/13, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkeeterBlue

So I'm trying to get ahead of the game her for our kidding season early next year. I have a few questions and I hope y'all will bear with this new expecting goat mommy!

What day of pregnancy do I give CD/T? (how many days after breeding)
CDT is usually given 4 weeks before their due date

What day of pregnancy do I give Bo-Se?
I give my BOSE shots 2 weeks before their due date and I have been known to give the kids 1/4cc of BOSE once they have been delivered.

What day of pregnancy do I dry off if momma is in milk?
My does have always been dried off before I even breed them but I believe the general rule of thumb is 1-2 months before kidding? Someone else can give much better info.

What are the main symptoms of pregnancy ketosis?
There is actually a great sticky about this and if you search on this forum there are many good threads. I have dealt with pregnancy toxemia before but not ketosis yet.

If ketosis is suspected, what are the steps to treat from most important/fastest to sustained treatment?
see above reply

What are the main symptoms of milk fever? When would/should I watch for milk fever in a pregnant doe?
I wanted to say first that generally a doe gets milking fever once she freshens no during pregnancy. I have never had a pregnant doe come down with milk fever, not to say that they can't but I have always seen a doe go down with it after freshening. Symptoms generally include slower/sluggish delivery, shivering/muscle tremors after milking, little or no appetite, a low/sub temp and as it progresses they get weaker and have a hard time standing.

If milk fever is suspected, what are the steps to treat from most important/fastest to sustained treatment?
If your doe starts shivering after you milk her you are probably looking at milk fever (see above reply for symptoms). It doesn't always just happen to heavy milking does, some people say it only happens to heavy milkers but it can happen to any doe if the conditions are right. For me if I have a doe who I suspect has milk fever I get her 40cc's via sub-Q shots of Calcium Gluconate 23% in several spots over her ribs. I also don't milk the doe for the next couple of days except to relieve pressure until I feel the crisis is over. I want to warn you milk fever can strike hard and fast, so if you suspect anything it is better to be safe rather than sorry IMHO. If I suspect issues of possible milk fever while they are in labor I give them 30cc's of CMPK to ward it off (sluggish labor is my first clue generally). There is also a wonderful Milk Fever sticky on this forum I would check out.

With first pregnancies, how long do I wait while doe is in active labor before I intervene? How long is labor expected in first timers who are not having difficulty?
Honestly this can vary so much from doe to doe. FF's sometimes take a tiny bit longer to get the kid out but my general rule of them is once the doe is in active labor and pushing I want to see SOMETHING after about 10-20 minutes. If I don't I lube up and go in, it is so much better to be safe than sorry. Also trust your guts! I have had does that while everything seemed to be going fine I just felt something was "off".

I always go in and check things out if I feel something is hinky or taking longer than it should. I would much rather be able to turn a kid around before they get stuck in the birth canal versus trying to shove them back in to fix something.

What are the most important items to have on hand for kidding?
Those loop things for grabbing onto feet in the uterus! I can't remember the technical name but you will want one of those. Also something to scrub up and lube up with in case you need to go in to feel around. There is a whole list I wrote down somewhere of what I like to have. I will look and see if I can't find it.

I'm sure there are more questions, but these are the foremost on my mind right now. If you feel I am missing something important, please share!

Thank you all in advance for your wisdom and experience and willingness to share with me!

I can say a milk stand is your best friend! Sometimes you don't have an extra hand there if something is going wrong (like a kid presented wrong). A milk stand will save your rear! I many a times have thrown a doe on a milk stand because I was home alone and I had to assist in a delivery.

My best advise when it comes to going in on a doe is just breath and take your time making sure you know exactly (or as close to exact) what you are feeling. I always close my eyes so I can fully concentrate on what I am feeling. Don't be afraid to shove a kid back in if you feel like there is no way to get them delivered properly, the doe won't like it but if you are careful and as gentle as possible it can be done. Hope some of my answers helped!

Justine

Goatsandsheep · #9 10/31/13, 10:49 AM

I give Bo-So before breeding. Maybe goats are different then sheep in this but I start with sheep and so I give Bo-So before breeding. This is the warning label on the bottle.

Quote:

DO NOT USE IN PREGNANT EWES. Deaths and abortions have been reported in pregnant ewes injected with this product.

I also keep loose salt and mineral with selenium and without out for them year around. Just my way of doing thing not saying another way is wrong.

Backfourty,MI. · #10 10/31/13, 10:57 AM

Golenwood Farm answered everything really well so I just want to say try & stay calm, remember things you've read & have everything ready. You'll do just fine.
Most of the time there aren't any problems at all & the does' can handle it like champs but good to be prepared just in case.

Doug Hodges · #11 10/31/13, 11:10 AM

How did goats ever live without man?!?!?

Living the good life

punchiepal · #12 10/31/13, 11:17 AM

FF or 5th freshening, every delivery is different. A doe that has never had a problem can have problems. Each year is different.
A few weeks before the first is due I pull out the websites and notes I have for "difficult" births to refresh myself. (helpful for my first frank breech last year, hook fingers in the hip area and help pull. always pull down)
I always have a couple of MFO bottles from Jeffers on hand.
20 minutes I like to see a birth or significant progress.
Sitting like a dog during active labor, kids usually are not in correct positions.
When checking presentation, feel for teeth. If you don't find teeth, you probably don't have the head.
At 100 days bred ours get a copper bolus, feet trimmed and iver+ worming. I don't want to be doing a foot trim too late in preg, so this is the last update trim before birth.

SkeeterBlue · #13 10/31/13, 11:52 AM

What is MFO?

What is the dose for Bo-SE?

**mygoat** · #14 10/31/13, 11:53 AM

I'll bite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkeeterBlue

So I'm trying to get ahead of the game her for our kidding season early next year. I have a few questions and I hope y'all will bear with this new expecting goat mommy!

What day of pregnancy do I give CD/T? (how many days after breeding)
Give at least 4 weeks PRE KIDDING to pregnant does. This will stimulate the immune system and give proper time for an increase of antibody production, which will then be passed to the kids through the colostrum. Colostrum is only readily absorbable in about the first 12 hrs of life for the kid, when the gut is still permeable to large proteins (like antibodies). The sooner after kidding, the better.

What day of pregnancy do I give Bo-Se?
I give CDT, BoSe, and Copper 4 weeks pre-kidding to all pregnant does. Sheep studies are showing that giving BoSe to females pre-parturition is more able to prevent infant symptoms of Se deficiency than is giving it to the infant at birth.

What day of pregnancy do I dry off if momma is in milk?
2 months pre-kidding. This allows for ample time for mammary tissue breakdown and then rebuild (mammogenesis) which will increase the does' lactation quality. Also allows for good colostrum development for kids.

What are the main symptoms of pregnancy ketosis?
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/meta...ketosis&alt=sh

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/meta...ketosis&alt=sh

If ketosis is suspected, what are the steps to treat from most important/fastest to sustained treatment?
See above.

What are the main symptoms of milk fever? When would/should I watch for milk fever in a pregnant doe?
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/meta...paresis&alt=sh

I start feeding alfalfa to does as soon as they freshen. Large amounts of alfalfa pelelts, and alfalfa hay if I have any. Feeding high calcium pre-kidding can actually supress normal calcium metabolism suh that the animal cannot pull calcium from the bones as is required at parturition/lactogenisis. An animal MUST pull calcium from the bones because even a high calcium diet does not supply enough calcium to the bloodstream of an animal that has extremely high demands. Traditionally, it was thought that a high Ca diet is ideal all year round, and I'm sure people disagree with me. I have done my own research on low/DCAD Ca diets for dairy cattle and this is the conclusion i have come to.

If milk fever is suspected, what are the steps to treat from most important/fastest to sustained treatment?

See above.

With first pregnancies, how long do I wait while doe is in active labor before I intervene? How long is labor expected in first timers who are not having difficulty?

This varies. Hard labor really does NOT take that long. Pre-labor or early labor can take a whole day, lol. Usually 12 hours after loosing ligaments, I start getting curious. Animals that can't move kids (too big, mispresented) may be in labor but it can stall. Once a doe is up and down, pushing HARD and quite often, kids should be around in 15 minutes or so. Some does fuss over each kid and can seem to stop labor between babies while they dilligently clean the firstborn. Others immediately start pushing out the next kid.

What are the most important items to have on hand for kidding?

Towels, iodine spray, BoSe are all I have in the barn for kidding. I also keep a weak kid syringe on hand, nipples/bottles (even if you're not PLANNING on bottle raising - refusing happens), colostrum/milk.

I'm sure there are more questions, but these are the foremost on my mind right now. If you feel I am missing something important, please share!

Thank you all in advance for your wisdom and experience and willingness to share with me!

**mygoat** · #15 10/31/13, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Hodges

How did goats ever live without man?!?!?

Living the good life

Domestic goats as we know them, did not exist without man. Wild goats do not have our economic or productivity interest and thus should not be compared to 'wild' goats.

GoldenWood Farm · #16 10/31/13, 11:55 AM

I give 1cc per 20lbs of BOSE for my herd but where I live is very deficient. I would check and see if where you live ia very selenium deficient and go from there.

**mygoat** · #17 10/31/13, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkeeterBlue

What is MFO?

What is the dose for Bo-SE?

MFO: http://www.jefferspet.com/mfo-soluti.../LIV/cp/A2-C5/

BoSe is 1cc per 40lbs. I give kids 1/2cc at birth (full size). In the past, I gave my pygmy mutt kits 1/4cc. I give does/bucks BoSe 1 month pre-kidding as well to increase repro health. I also give copper at both of those times as well.

dozedotz · #18 10/31/13, 12:28 PM

At this point I would just like to clarify something. We do NOT have a barn cam. We stay with the doe(s) from the first sign of goo until they deliver. We have NEVER had a doe go all day or 12 hours from goo to delivery...that includes all the pre labor time. One to two hours has been tops. The actual time for delivery from hard pushing to kid on the ground varies...but, yes, 20 minutes is what I would consider standard. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

SkeeterBlue · #19 10/31/13, 12:35 PM

Okay this is a total stupid newbie question that I'm sure y'all have answered a million times. What side of the doe is the rumen and what side is the uterus. So, I'm dense so tell me what side if I'm standing behind the doe and she is facing away from me.

SkeeterBlue · #20 10/31/13, 12:37 PM

And, if I give 40 cc's of calcium gluconate 23% injections over the ribs in several spots, is that 40 cc's total, or several 40 cc injections?