Using Lute to induce heat

**mygoat** · #1 09/09/13, 05:14 PM

I've asked this before, I know... But I would like to use Lute to sync some girls. One is a doe who doesn't show strong heats, and another is a doe who does NOT take a CIDR. No matter how many times I apply it, there is a half inch of CIDR sticking out. Poor girl is sensitive and she starts shaking, she's so afraid.

What I'm thinking is giving a 2ml shot of lute, and then another 2ml shot of lute 14 days later. I will give PG600 at the SAME TIME as the 2nd lute shot. I then want to turn them in with the bucks. Does this sound correct?

Doug Hodges · #2 09/09/13, 05:27 PM

Wanna know where to not get your PG600? Just ask Susie. I think she can tell you. LOL

**mygoat** · #3 09/09/13, 05:55 PM

LOL - where is that?

I just ordered from Jeffers literally minutes ago - should be in this week. I'm going to try divvying up the powder and putting it into 3ml sterile blood tubes so that I have it all ready to go by dose. Then, I'll add 2ml of water right before I use it - that way I don't have to try freezing it and each dose is fresh. I even bought a tiny gram scale to weigh carefully.

yarrow · #4 09/09/13, 06:06 PM

Doug and I both ordered *just about the same time* from Valley Vet.. NONE. as in not a one of my does or his came into heat when they were suppose to... 100% failure rate .. something is wrong somewhere.. either the CIDRs or the PG600.. I'm thinking it's the PG600 (since we had no break thru heats with the CIDRs in place).. talked to Valley Vet's vet today.. (he knows NOTHING about goats LOL.. kept talking cows.. pointed out I don't have cows..have goats.. bought GOAT CIDRs.. he tried to tell me I'm trying to breed out of season.. told him I have nubians.. it's NOT out of season and had I NOT WASTED three weeks with HIS CIDRs and PG600.. my does would probably have come in and already been bred.. like the two that bred before the CIDRs arrived.. he kept telling me it was my goats fault.. not his products and no refund..
I told him I would be buying elsewhere from now on LOL..and telling my FRIENDS about it.. (little does he know how many FRIENDS read this site hmmm)

susie, mo ozarks

**mygoat** · #5 09/09/13, 08:17 PM

Lots of my girls didn't go into a very strong obvious heat last year using CIDRs/PG600 (both from Jeffers) but all were preg at preg check (ran them with the buck for several days after I removed CIDRs) as well as 3 of 4 AI does that I AI'd 48hrs after CIDR removal. Usually does in heat get REALLY dirty - a couple of the boers running with the buck had grubby hair but some I was really worried didn't get bred at all, they were *that* clean. I get weird heats with CIDRs, nowhere near like a regular strong heat. A couple didn't show ANY signs of heat at all, even were semi ambivalent about a buck. My doe Bungie had a CIDR in twice with no strong visible heats... then I used lute, and still no visible heat. But, Dad decided to throw her in with the buck and sure enough she halfheartedly stood - and then she came back preggo... So, must've worked.

**mygoat** · #6 09/09/13, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yarrow

kept talking cows.. pointed out I don't have cows..have goats.. bought GOAT CIDRs.. he tried to tell me I'm trying to breed out of season.. told him I have nubians.. it's NOT out of season and had I NOT WASTED three weeks with HIS CIDRs and PG600..
susie, mo ozarks

Can't blame him for talking cows. That's where all the repro studies/info comes from. Pretty much none done with goats. But, it's pretty reasonable to think they'd be similar.

It's not out of season for ANY breed of goats. Where do they get this info?

Doug Hodges · #7 09/09/13, 08:31 PM

One of my does came in heat 10 days after pulling the CIDR and 12 days after the shot. The rest were 3 days to 6 days after pulling the CIDR. All had raging heats when they finally came in heat. I think they came in heat from pulling the CIDR and they came in because their body had been wanting to and the PG600 had no effect.

**mygoat** · #8 09/09/13, 08:50 PM

Yup, last year with PG600/CIDRs, I had doelings come into a weird heat... had to hold them. They came in again like 2 weeks later and were re-bred, naturally - and that's the duedate that they kidded from.

I don't really think it's product quality, but simply the fact that it doesn't work as well as the animals' body.

Doug Hodges · #9 09/09/13, 08:53 PM

Where were you when I was deciding to do this? Everyone I talked to said they came in heat anywhere from 8 to 36 hours after pulling the Cidr and most said it was 12 to 24 hours.

Doug Hodges · #10 09/09/13, 08:58 PM

Funny thing though. 3 does (without cidr) bred 2 to 5 days before I pulled them on the others and 2 more bred right after 4 of them bred and now I only have one unbred doe and one doeling that Im not breeding.

**mygoat** · #11 09/09/13, 10:03 PM

Well, I did comment, lol.

As I said, I gave PG600 36hrs prior to CIDR removal. I pulled CIDRs, and put the live cover does in with the bucks for like 5 days and let them figure it out. Some of those does didn't look bred, but then, he had 6 does to cover so he could have concentrated his attention elsewhere. (this year I plan on using a marking harness so I can tell instantly how well a doe is covered...)

The AI recipients I simply AI'd about 48hrs post CIDR removal. Had no idea what I was doing or looking for, so I just AI'd by the average hours of ovulation. I pulled CIDRs on Thursday AM, heats expected around Friday AM, and I AI'd Sat AM. I saw NO signs of heat in the AI does, but then - I wasn't home on Friday until late. (normal heats usually last at least 24hrs though... Dad may not be the best source, but he said pretty much that none of them were acting like normal in heat does.

All 6 live cover does and 3 of the 4 AI does were bred when I did preg checks 30 days later via blood. The 4th AI doe was re-CIDR'd, and she had no visible heat upon removal - 2 doelings CIDR'd at the same time went into heat 50+ hrs after CIDR removal (instead of giving PG600 36hrs prior to removal, I gave it AT removal, however) and they did not take on that weird heat (lots of goo, vocal, swollen, flagging , but scared of bucks and wouldn't stand unless held.) Came into heat like 2 weeks later and rebred/settled then. The still open AI doe, I then lutelysed and gave PG600 and that's when we put her with the buck and she took.

I'm going to stick with giving PG600 36hrs prior to removal again this year, and AI'ing around 48hrs post CIDR removal. Use buck harness to see how well does are covered - mainly for my own curiosity.

I'll be doing AI again same as last year, and I'll also be preg checking. I'm sure I'll let everybody know how it goes.

yarrow · #12 09/09/13, 10:09 PM

and I'm just going to throw away the remaining CIDRs and PG600.. since we induce each doe.. I can't just leave does with bucks and hope for breedings.. We have to do hand breedings so we have exact dates.. have 2 that bred without the CIDRS (back before I put any in)..Nite bred yesterday.. Amelia, Dill & Giada today.. hoping Gloomy & Olive come in tomorrow.. Have 3 more does that I pulled CIDRs on yesterday (was 4, but Giada is one of those).. then on the 13th.. have 4 more due to pull.. then 4 or 5 more on the 17th.. basically I'm annoyed that I spent so much time.. planning this all out (and it has worked in the pass, perfectly right around that 36hour mark.. bam.. everyone in heat).. I'm just hoping we haven't messed anyone up for this cycle and are going to be stuck waiting yet another 3 weeks..

susie, mo ozarks

**mygoat** · #13 09/10/13, 07:36 AM

You can't throw the does in with the bucks for 4-5 days after pulling CIDRs? Let him figure it out? That's what I was suggesting, not leaving them all in for extended periods. Then watch for heats and/or preg check 30d later (my dad can't spot heats herdwide so I preg check, lol) I induce every doe too, but I just can't spot the induced heats very well, whereas the bucks have proven they can. It gives me a close enough duedate for the girls by putting them with the buck immediately after CIDR removal. I had a relatively easy time of kidding season this spring. Does were all 'due' 3/6, all kids arrived between 3/1 and 3/5.

yarrow · #14 09/10/13, 08:26 PM

Well it's a breeding frenzy here.. we've now gotten seven of the does that we've pulled CIDRs from bred...(Coso just left from Ai'ing Gloomy .. chose KASTDEMUR'S FULL MONTY for her .. fingers and toes crossed that she takes.. have Twyla and Rizzo left to come in from the 2nd group.. will pull another group's CIDRs on friday.. hope to get the other two bred before then... it's only thrown us off by a handful of days.. so no biggie (as long as they all take.. Heats have all been loud and pushy.. no missing all the flagging/sceaming.. rubbing along the buck pen LOL)

susie, mo ozarks

**mygoat** · #15 09/10/13, 08:38 PM

Ok! Back to my original question (LOL!) - does my lute protocol sound about right?

Doug Hodges · #16 09/10/13, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yarrow

Well it's a breeding frenzy here.. we've now gotten seven of the does that we've pulled CIDRs from bred...(Coso just left from Ai'ing Gloomy .. chose KASTDEMUR'S FULL MONTY for her .. fingers and toes crossed that she takes.. have Twyla and Rizzo left to come in from the 2nd group.. will pull another group's CIDRs on friday.. hope to get the other two bred before then... it's only thrown us off by a handful of days.. so no biggie (as long as they all take.. Heats have all been loud and pushy.. no missing all the flagging/sceaming.. rubbing along the buck pen LOL)

susie, mo ozarks

Yea. Mine were too. Wonder if the temps played a part.

yarrow · #17 09/11/13, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

Ok! Back to my original question (LOL!) - does my lute protocol sound about right?

duh.. meant to say YES, from what I've heard and what the valley vet's vet suggested.. your lute protocol should work just fine.

susie, mo ozarks

Doug Hodges · #18 09/11/13, 12:12 PM

Is that what this thread was about? I got side tracked