Breeder telling me goats dont test CAE/CL free?

CAjerseychick · #1 09/03/13, 08:17 PM

Is this true guys? I finally got the go ahead on Goats from DH and am contacting owners/ breeders.
Saw a herd of Kikos that looked pretty good and owner says they are "vaccinated against CAE and CL" but won't test CAE/CL free....but are healthy and high quality....
Is this true?
Not heard back from the Kinder person yet, I guess I can always make my own.....

DownHome · #2 09/03/13, 08:22 PM

If I remember correctly there is a vac for CAE, but it is not approved for goats. Once goats or any animal have had the vac they will most likely test positive for CAE. I don't think there is a vac for CL. I knew when I started out I wanted CAE negative goats, it was a decision I was glad I made. Wouldn't have it any other way. gl

downhome

Cannon_Farms · #3 09/03/13, 08:25 PM

um, no and yes. CAE unless I have been in the dark has no vaccine so there for I will say no. If they vaccinate for CL then yes, they can have false positives. I wouldnt risk it personally unless these are not for pets and you could handle culling a positive animal. Cl is rampent in meat herds but its not impossible to find a clean herd, its just not a big deal to them, kinda like a brown spot on a banana you just cut it out.
Just curious as to why Kiko? Pygmies are on the bottom of the totem pole in the goat world so I would be just as wary of them.
Many meat goat herds wont vaccinate until there is a problem.

Cannon_Farms · #4 09/03/13, 08:30 PM

Oh, and just because one might test negative doesnt mean its 100% set in stone just no infection at the time, hence yearly testing

Minelson · #5 09/03/13, 08:41 PM

I have never heard of a CAE vaccination. But there is a new CL vaccination for goats. If the goat is vaccinated for CL then the test would show positive because the antibodies or something are in the vaccine.
MyGoat knows all about that kind of stuff...maybe she will chime in

**mygoat** · #6 09/03/13, 09:19 PM

No CAE vaccine - at all. Goats are the only species to get CAE so far as I know. That's why it's called Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis.

There is a similar disease - Ovine Progressive Pneumonia (OPP) in sheep. No vaccine for that, either.

The breeder doesn't know anything, has decided they are right (or that their way of thinking is easiest and thus best), and has refused to learn anything new, apparently.

CAE tests are pretty darn reliable. Tons of herds can attest to the accuracy of the test as well as the ease of eliminating it from a breeding population or it's ease of management, depending on which way the owner would like to handle it. It canbe done wrong or it can be done right...

I have said it before, and will probably say it a million more times - ALL INDIVIDUAL DIAGNOSITC TESTS ARE SUBJECT TO INTERPRETATION. NO ONE SINGLE TEST IS DEFINITIVE. Your ability to claim a negative herd status becomes fairly sure after 3 sucessive negative blood results on the entire herd 6 months and older, at least 6 months apart in time. In herds that bring in new goats, or show at fair or in breed shows, or use outside bucks/provide stud service, you simply cannot know if your goats have been exposed since the prior test. Or, if you drew blood a few days after being exposed to the disease, the body simply hasn't had time to make the antibodies you're looking for. So, if the animal is RECENTLY exposed to a level that would cause infection, it may still test negative. Or, a young animal recieving CAE positive but pasteurized milk may have a titre, but on subsequent retests, be negative.

CL tests are known to be very finicky. You'll often hear of blood tests coming back negative on animals with active abscesses. Or, blood-test positive on animals that have been extradorinarily healthy, not exposed to CL, from a disease free herd etc. The CL test that is truely accurate and definitive is the abscess culture. ALL ANIMALS WITH AN UNEXPLAINED ABSCESS MUST BE ISOLATED AND TESTED. The only exception is when you get injection site abscesses, injury abscesses etc that you KNOW how it came to be. I have gotten 'boarderline' CL blood results that upon retest were NEGATIVE. Negative since, do not show, limited expsure to outside animals, no abcesses... With CL, herd history, management history, and health is usually far more indicative of status than any single or even a couple blood tests for CL.

My biosecurity policy is to buy from tested herds or at the worst, draw blood before I bring something home. I test for CL, CAE, and Johnes. Even though I just said the CL test is finicky, I still test for it. Why? It is the ONLY tool I have besides believing the breeder's word that the herd is clean. Some people I'd trust with a lot, some people I just haven't known long enough. I then isolate for 3 months on my property IF they come back clean after the first test. Then, I test again for CL, CAE, and Johnes after the 3 month isolation. If this is negative, they are introduced to the main herd. Every animal has 2 tests under their belt before I risk my herd. I then disease test for CAE and Johnes yearly. I continue the CAE test mainly because it is industry standard and people tend to ask questions when you DON'T disease test every year, even if you have impeccable biosecurity, do not show, do not keep positives, etc etc. I test for Johnes because it is a sneakier pathogen with a longer incubation time than most, so your best bet is to test yearly to catch any that switch, if you bring in outside stock. I do not test for CL on the main herd because it's expensive and my herd history indicates I'm negative and my biosecurity is pretty darn strict.

Understanding which diseases can come from other animals on your farm is important. Johnes disease can infect goats from cattle, CL can come from sheep etc.

On a final note - always always always always have an isolation pen. ALWAYS. There's a million reasons to have them. A few cattle panels and a truck cap/dog house/lean to/shed and you're in business. Preferably located 30' or more from your other current livestock.

**mygoat** · #7 09/03/13, 09:23 PM

Oh, and there IS a new CL vaccine that is approved and made specifically for goats. The old one was originally tested on goats as well as sheep, but had bad reactions in the goats. Thus, they only approved it for sheep. The new one apparently has had no major reactions in the studies they've done and it was designed for use in goats. CL vaccinated animals will have a response on the test, however. Presonally, I would use it if I was more lax in biosecurity or if I was battling the disease and trying to eliminate it. From the sounds of it, it may be a very good vaccine/worth the investment depending on your herd.

CAjerseychick · #8 09/04/13, 02:19 AM

Ok thanks you guys (espec Mygoats)!
I just reread the breeder's email he says his herd is high quality but "they will not test CAE/CL" free so I guess he is telling me he does not have a CAE/CL free herd.... And does say he vaccinates for Both (so am guessing he is not being clear with me)...
Sigh.
I was interested in Kikos for their dual purpose hardiness. Also about half my pasture is very slightly downslope and pretty wet all winter and they are known for good feet.
My friend up in OR loves his Nubians but says they are always getting foot rot...

We have no livestock and these are our first. The Kinders(the other breed we were curious about) seem to be about medium to smaller size and alittle easier, and as we cant really decide, the dual purpose and not too much milk seems about right (we were just going to get a pair to start off with)...
And I was thinking if we had to get a buck a pygmy is easier to handle? (And just looking on CL they are more availiable and with CAE/CL clearances as well)...
Just looking for a good breeder at this point we are up north of Sacramento near Grass Valley...

Cannon_Farms · #9 09/04/13, 05:56 AM

Its more about the quality of the goat then the breed, its like saying all labs are great hunting dogs, mine hates water and refuses to fetch.
Even in the wet muck here I have not had foot rot I have had thrush but regular trimmings keep it in line. A goat nutrition is going to effect its hoof growth more than breed,
I personally dont like Kikos the herds I have worked here dont hold weight well, I have had just as much issue with hooves and wormes/coccidia as with any other breeds. Their genetics where diluted from once being a better of the breeds to its a kiko it must breed and no one was really culling because the stereo type was so strong. Same thing happened with boers.

There are soo many good nubian breeders out your way, it seems everything I want it always in CA or WA.

Ford Zoo · #10 09/04/13, 08:15 AM

If kiko's are what you want, keep looking and you'll find a breeder with a hardy line that has good feet and good worm resistance.

**mygoat** · #11 09/04/13, 09:39 AM

I strongly dislike nubians, so I can't help you there.

Noisy needy pushy animals and I can't understand the following they have. I like swiss breeds and LaManchas much more!

As far as Kinders go, I know some people like them. But there isn't a huge following for them so selling them can be an issue. You're also running a great risk of essentially ruining your great milking nubians by crossing them with pygmies, IMO. Pygmies have a short lactation and tiny itty bitty teats. I see no reason to cross the two breeds. Sure, when you cross two breeds you get hybrid vigour... but I'd cross two full size dairy breeds OR a good dairy lined nigerian buck to full size does before pygmies. Usually 'dual purpose' breeds simply means they don't do either thing well ON AVERAGE (I'm also against 'dual purpose' chickens because they tend to suck at meat production etc etc). Any breed can be eaten and produce meat, including purebred dairy breeds. Because it's a cross, some animals may get more of the milky genetics or more of the meaty genetics. It's a total toss up that can continue for a few generations. I don't like that variability. (then again, pygmies aren't selected for fast growth like a meat animal should be - they are mostly pets.)

Kikos are meat goats. A great cross is Kiko does bred to a Boer buck. The kiko does are hardy and resist worms, smaller in size than a boer doe so they cost less to maintain. The cross offspring are usually superior due to hybrid vigour and make ideal market weight of 40-60lbs often at weaning or shortly thereafter.

My dream herd? Get a bunch of purebred Kikos and a couple Myotonic sires. Cross them, and keep resulting fast-growing daughters to be covered by Boer sires. Does will express hybrid vigour in their growth, prolificacy, and hardiness. Their kids will display hybrid vigour as well as benefit from their dam's hybrid vigour in milk production and grow like little weeds. See how that goes - I may choose to cross in some high production milk lines as well. Probably LaManchas as I *love* my LaBoers.

CAjerseychick · #12 09/04/13, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

I strongly dislike nubians, so I can't help you there.

Noisy needy pushy animals and I can't understand the following they have. I like swiss breeds and LaManchas much more!

As far as Kinders go, I know some people like them. But there isn't a huge following for them so selling them can be an issue. You're also running a great risk of essentially ruining your great milking nubians by crossing them with pygmies, IMO. Pygmies have a short lactation and tiny itty bitty teats. I see no reason to cross the two breeds. Sure, when you cross two breeds you get hybrid vigour... but I'd cross two full size dairy breeds OR a good dairy lined nigerian buck to full size does before pygmies. Usually 'dual purpose' breeds simply means they don't do either thing well ON AVERAGE (I'm also against 'dual purpose' chickens because they tend to suck at meat production etc etc). Any breed can be eaten and produce meat, including purebred dairy breeds. Because it's a cross, some animals may get more of the milky genetics or more of the meaty genetics. It's a total toss up that can continue for a few generations. I don't like that variability. (then again, pygmies aren't selected for fast growth like a meat animal should be - they are mostly pets.)

Kikos are meat goats. A great cross is Kiko does bred to a Boer buck. The kiko does are hardy and resist worms, smaller in size than a boer doe so they cost less to maintain. The cross offspring are usually superior due to hybrid vigour and make ideal market weight of 40-60lbs often at weaning or shortly thereafter.

My dream herd? Get a bunch of purebred Kikos and a couple Myotonic sires. Cross them, and keep resulting fast-growing daughters to be covered by Boer sires. Does will express hybrid vigour in their growth, prolificacy, and hardiness. Their kids will display hybrid vigour as well as benefit from their dam's hybrid vigour in milk production and grow like little weeds. See how that goes - I may choose to cross in some high production milk lines as well. Probably LaManchas as I *love* my LaBoers.

We were looking at Nubians for dual purpose goats, as well as being friendly and easy to tame (that needy quality?)-- I love goat meat and we have 300lbs of dogs to feed. The milking aspect is cause.... even with our fat and sassy Jersey Giants that have been loose in the pasture all summer-- we have not worked up the nerve to eat one (and they even sucessfully brooded and hatched out chicks that are about 8 weeks old now)...
So milk is a hedge against failure to butcher....
And, wanted to start with a pair of something to see if we are Goat people-if not-- was thinking there is more of a market with butcher lambs and we could switch to a couple of ewes...(we would keep the goats as self sustaining pets and weed eaters)...
I just want to turn our 1.5 acres pasture into alittle cash-- its been fallow 2 years and all overgrown bad- there was a horse here before....

**mygoat** · #13 09/04/13, 11:39 AM

If by a pair, you mean two females, then yes. If you mean you want a male-female pair together, I don't suggest that. From a management standpoint, keeping males separate from females is usually the way to go. You'll get exact breeding dates (ideal for kidding season for kid livability, potential for complications, and if you want to pull kids etc). Also, a buck will harass a doe in labor and cause a host of issues too. Because they are herd animals, you'd need a wether to go along with your buck, and a 2nd doe or wether to go with a doe.

IF tameness is your goal, then any of the dairy breeds will do. Just raise the doelings on the bottle. I pull all dairy kids - male and female. Some leave the males on the dams, some people dam raise all kids. I *hate* dam raised dairy kids. I have a large enough herd that taming dam raised kids is really difficult, though. Bottle raised kids will be very friendly and with dairies, are the easiest to tame to the milkstand IMO. Because of milking we're home most of the time anyways, so bottling 3x per day is no big deal and takes a few minutes 3x per day. As for nubians being 'dual purpose', I'm seeing more and more very dairy typed nubians. Perhaps the original nubians were better (coarser, thicker framed goats that were MUCH meatier), but your average well bred nubian can be VERY dairy in type. You could use a boer sire on your dairy does, but the resulting 50% boer cross kids won't sell for as much as a purebred dairy doeling in most cases.

Meat goats, since they are dam raised, can often be more untame. If that's an issue, just bottle raise the ones you want to keep. I've done it both ways and have decided that in a meat herd, I have no benefit to taming them by bottle raising. I handle them several times a year and just do it by catching them all, doing what needs done, and letting them loose again.

where I want to · #14 09/04/13, 01:08 PM

I have vaccinated goats for CL in the past. Only one ever turned out to have a test that had a low level titer. It was negative only because the titer was within the statistical error sensativity of the test. And she turned out to have CL.
All the other goats tested totally negative and have never developed CL.
So I am more than a little hesitent about it.

I think that if I really really really wanted a goat from such a herd, I would still want a test. And , if I bought one with a low titer, I would religiously test for a number of years and keep a really close eye on her.

o&itw · #15 09/04/13, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

I strongly dislike nubians, so I can't help you there.

Noisy needy pushy animals and I can't understand the following they have.

Hmmm.... I realy like their looks, but I guess I will be sticking with meat goats. I raised three kids already

ozark_jewels · #16 09/05/13, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

I strongly dislike nubians, so I can't help you there.

Noisy needy pushy animals and I can't understand the following they have.

I'm sorry, but this type of blanket statement is just as wrong and untrue as "Alpines are mean, pushy, witchy animals", or "Boers are unthrifty, wormy, bad mothers", or "Saanens are dumb and boring as a box of rocks". True, some animals in the breed will exhibit these qualities, but by no means ALL. Give me a break.