Trying to make decision for tiny doeling

redgate · #1 08/21/13, 06:38 PM

This past spring, in March, one of my Alpine does freshened with twins. It was a perfect delivery, unassisted. The only discrepency was in the size of the twins, both doelings. One was nearly 10 lbs, while the other was 5 lbs. The smaller one had some difficulty nursing the doe's large teats, so I both bottled her to ensure she got enough, and helped her nurse for the first 2 weeks, until she showed that she could do it on her own. She wasn't weak or anything, just couldn't grip that massive sausage-type teat in her mouth without help until she got bigger. Mom never gave her a problem, so once I saw she could do it on her own, I quit the bottle, and she nursed.

Fast forward a bit, and the bigger doe got bigger, but the smaller doe just didn't really grow. She has absolutely thrived in terms of being in good health, alert, soft, silky fur, energetic, etc. She just hasn't grown much. The dam weaned them both around 4 months, so I know she hasn't really nursed since then, but she was eating hay and grain fine by then. Now, at almost 5 months old, she weighs somewhere between 20-30 lbs. Her bigger sister, in comparison, was approaching 50 lbs a couple weeks ago, when she got entero and I lost her. I figured out the cause, fixed it, and this little girl has had no issues. Seems to be healthy as a horse, eats great. I had planned to breed her this fall, due to her excellent genetics, but now I am concerned about whether she will be ready or not. Also in comparison, I have a 9 week old buckling that is also around 35 lbs, and appears almost twice as big as this little girl.

For the record, she isn't just short. She is totally proportional, just very petite all over. She has a very lean "dairy" look to her, seems to have most of the physical characteristics (spring of rib, nice long teats, very feminine head, etc) we look for in a good breeding candidate. But she is so TINY! Her legs are skinny, her head is tiny, everything is just tiny and cute, almost like a newly-born kid. I know holding her over for a year is an option, but I don't want to feed her for a year if I don't have to, or if you don't think she'll ever grow much or ever become a good breeder.

I would love to hear some thoughts on your experience with little ones. Thanks in advance.
redgate

redgate · #2 08/21/13, 06:44 PM

I know everybody likes photos, so maybe these will help. They aren't great, just random photos I took. The one shows the little pied doeling next to her bigger twin sister and their dam. The next shows just the doeling. I wanted to show off her "cute" factor.

Cannon_Farms · #3 08/21/13, 08:25 PM

She may just need more time to grow, I wouldnt breed her this fall but maybe the spring if you just had too. you may also find her a home with some one that wants to breed mini alpines that wont mind her smaller size.
You will need to make sure she gets a bit extra like calf mana just to help her grow to her max otherwise.

Alice In TX/MO · #4 08/21/13, 09:24 PM

WHERE ARE YOU?? I'll take her. Oh, my, gosh. She's beautiful. I have a Mini Mancha/Alpine cross buck (with tri-color genetics) that I could breed her to NEXT year.

Edited to add:
One of my Alpines was bred to that buck last winter. She had a seven pound kid and a three pound kid. The little one was cute as can be, but just never grew like her sister. Much like your situation.

redgate · #5 08/21/13, 09:40 PM

Alice, I actually considered selling her early on. I never liked a pied until she came along, but in terms of what we were breeding for, her sis was a better match. Then, when I lost her sis, I was left only with her to carry on that line, which I really like. The mini-Alpine idea might be the way to go, at least for her first. She is totally healthy in all aspects, just so tiny. I have never dealt with that before. My kids have always been within a couple pounds of each other, and smaller ones always catch up within a few months. This girl threw me for a loop. FTR, I am in central IL.

FYI, if you know Alpine lines at all, her lines are Harmody Alpines and Mamm-Key. She has awesome potential. I'll think about it.

Clovers_Clan · #6 08/21/13, 10:57 PM

Could it be some genetic diversity size-wise or growth rate in their make-up?... Or had any handsome Nigerian fellas in the neighborhood about 5 months prior?

Ditto on the Mini Alpines for her first breeding. Add her pattern and her mamma's udder to some blue eyes people will be clamoring to buy those babies!

Breezy833 · #7 08/21/13, 11:03 PM

I never really paid goats much attention until i got to this thread. Aren't many around in the city, but their so stinkin' CUTE

redgate · #8 08/22/13, 08:49 AM

LOL! No, she is definitely 100% Alpine. Her dam did have an interesting breeding situation that fall, but it was totally controlled. The buck, however, was only about 8 months old, and she was one of his first breedings. She was so big, I actually had to hold her so he could take a jump to connect. Neither wanted the step stool we offered.

Suzyq2u · #9 08/22/13, 09:19 AM

Goodness she's cute!! I couldn't sell her either.

I think they're a lot like people, we're all different sizes - even with the same parents

Our Daisy threw a set of twins a little over 2 months ago and the size difference between the buck and doe are amazing!! She is the smallest of all that were born that shared the same sire but *so spunky*. I really hate the thought of selling her, she's so cute.

dozedotz · #10 08/22/13, 09:23 AM

Heron Hill has a similar situation with their Nigerians. They have a doeling that is just too small (even for Nigerians) to breed. They are keeping her for visiting schools, etc. She is adorable and came from a normal breeding, was nursed, eats well, is perfectly healthy...just really, really small. You can read about her on This Goat's Life or FB under Heron Hill Dairy. You might even be able to contact the breeder to see if she has any additional info on this situation. That's the only other "normal" kid but just too small story I have heard. Usually a very, very small kid dies...too weak, sick with something awful or genetic or unknown causes. She is certainly adorable and maybe the breeding with a small buck would be ok next year as has been suggested.

dozedotz · #11 08/22/13, 09:26 AM

Sorry, I should have added that her name is "Crumpet," if you are interested in the story.

**mygoat** · #12 08/22/13, 10:49 AM

I will say considering the size of momma's teats, she'd really add a lot to the mini dairy world, lol. I hate tiny teats.

How much grain is she getting? Did you do cocci prevention?

You could always breed her and see what happens - NEXT year. If her kids are slow growing too, I would move away from her genetics though. I want girls that are yearling FF. They're livestock to me, no reason to wait if you don't have to - they suit MY needs, not the other way around.

I'm not saying I breed undersize does or 'slow maturing' does - I tend to cull them instead of waiting a year is all. Though more common in larger multiples, the placenta only has a few connection points on the wall of the uterus - more connections means bigger kids - singles get the most per kid, twins share (usually), triplets there is usually one who gets the fewest - and every time I've had quads, I've had a itty bitty runtie butt who is the cutest thing.

It seems odd that she is so small and only twins, but with her sister being so big I would bet that she just got shorted on the connection points. In other words, environmental and not genetic in origin.

She very well may make an acceptable breeding size next year, but it is hard to say. Even my runties from my quads out of my mini goats (birth weight on a 'big' runt was 1lb 6oz) were able to attain large enough size to breed, but never in their first year. In fact, my runtie that I keptwas the only mini I ever had that did not need delivery assistance... LOL.